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The point of law is to serve the nation Is it in the nation's best interest for you to hire the best person? or to hire a tax payer? It's not old school, it's

by fooey 6y ago

The point of law is to serve the nation Is it in the nation's best interest for you to hire the best person? or to hire a tax payer? It's not old school, it's self protection.

jtdev 6y ago
Talent and skill development also happen in the workplace... so requiring U.S. companies to hire U.S. workers serves the nation. We see a similar issue in academia, where top programs have a huge cohort of foreign students - students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably).
- tisu32 6y ago
  That's not quite true in my opinon. Take your example of academia. Many students will chose to stay in the US after (if they can, because salaries tend to be higher than in many other countries) rather than depart. Also, instead of "taking" knowledge, they might actually create some new knowledge. Think about how many brilliant professors in US universities were once foreign post-docs there. If the US chooses to close its borders to this sort of talent, it will considerably weaken itself in the longer term against countries enacting more rational immigration policies.
  - jtdev 6y ago
    And many students choose to return to their origin countries... some of these countries are even exerting influence on our academic institutions, e.g., China’s “Confucius Institute” model. If you think that’s in the interest of the U.S. you’re being willfully ignorant.
    - tisu32 6y ago
      That's not what I said. Yes, some students (a small minority) will be acting in the interests of other countries. Overall, the US is a net winner in terms of benefits vs costs of foreign students. This is one of the reasons many colleges are currently under strong financial strain: no international students to pay the bills. Would you rather close borders to all foreign students?
      - jtdev 6y ago
        Maybe. American working class students have been priced out of many top academic programs, yet foreign students continued to pile in, solidifying the prohibitive cost of these programs. How is that a good thing? I’m personally happy to see these institutions struggle... they clearly need to find a way to serve more than the wealthy elite here and abroad.
        908B64B197 6y ago
        How else are universities supposed to finance these programs?
        jtdev 6y ago
        Most have multi-billion dollar endowments and run their campuses like country clubs for the world’s elite’s kids.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  The US is incredibly lucky that so many of the smartest people in the world come to do research at its universities. Most countries would love to be in that position. Cutting off that immigration in order to "serve the nation" would be incredibly short-sighted. > students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably). Or, if they're allowed to, remain in the US and contribute to its continued technological and scientific dominance. Even if they eventually leave the US, they don't just soak up knowledge while they're in the US. Most actual research is done by graduate students, for relatively meager pay. The US has a continual influx of extremely smart people who are willing to work relatively cheaply to keep American research institutions at the forefront of scientific research. How is this a bad deal for the United States?
  - jtdev 6y ago
    It’s about balance... what SV is doing with H1B is not about keeping the U.S. at “the forefront of scientific research”.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      I was talking about academia, which is why I said "scientific research." What SV is doing is perpetuating US dominance in software (and some hardware development fields). If most of the skilled software engineers in the world become off-limits to SV companies, then the global software industry will cease to be so heavily concentrated in SV. It's strange and amusing to see people earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year complaining about foreigners undercutting their salaries. They imagine that if immigration is restricted, then the open jobs will go to Americans. The reality is that the jobs will leave. Aesop must have written a fable about this sort of situation.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jtdev 6y ago
        Do you think Xi and Modi would be allowing their citizens to work and study in the U.S. if it were not advantageous to China and India?
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  That's a huge competitive advantage. Country X gets the top students from country X, the US gets the top students from the world! That smart TA from X European country helping American undergrads on that problem set? He's not helping undergrads from his country. He's not publishing papers that would boost his country's schools either. One might ask if the lab he works at would even exist without foreign grad students! Would there be enough native applicants to staff it? Graduate school isn't a zero sum game. It's an ecosystem and ecosystems have a huge network effect.
munk-a 6y ago
We're in a bad position today - but we should be aware that an under-investment in education and other social services has caused our tax payers to not be the best candidates.
- rhexs 6y ago
  Would love a citation on this one. Forcing above average American students into cram schools to memorize leetcode problems would probably help make Americans “the best candidates” for the whiteboard merry-go-round, but I have a strange feeling interviews would start morphing again if that happened.
  - username90 6y ago
    American students are very reluctant to study stem compared to most rich countries so USA wouldn't be able to compete with the rest of the world without importing talent. So the choice is to let companies import talent or see them move to another country.
    - woeirua 6y ago
      They're already outsourcing the jobs to other countries because of cost regardless of talent level. If the US did away with the H1B visa entirely, companies here would hire people they would have previously overlooked and train them to be as competent as what they would have hired abroad.
      - username90 6y ago
        Facebook already trains people, they hire a ton of inexperienced people every year and train them to become software engineers. All they require is that you are smart/hard working enough to pass their tests.
tisu32 6y ago
That's true, but there are many ways to "serve the nation". Note that a foreigner who comes to work in a country will also be a tax payer, the same way a US citizen is. In addition, given the barriers to entry, they might be more qualified than the equivalent "native" employee (since the company is willing to pull the extra effort). They might become citizens after some time as well. Also, if you make it hard to hire necessary talent from abroad (as is the case in the US, and to a lesser extent in Europe as well), you end up making your own companies weaker in the process.
- bassman9000 6y ago
  But we know how the system is used today, not in the hypothetical: to hire 30-40% cheaper, and to hire people that, for years, will have fewer rights than citizens.
  - tisu32 6y ago
    That is not always true: top tier companies like FB (the subject of this article), Google pay internationals the same as locals. As for the issue of rights I fully agree: much better to instead give foreigners much more security when they immigrate in terms of visas.
fishywang 6y ago
Can you elaborate on what do you mean by "or to hire a tax payer"? If you hire the best person overseas and bring them to the US to work via immigration process, that person becomes a tax payer to the US, no?

by fooey 6y ago

The point of law is to serve the nation Is it in the nation's best interest for you to hire the best person? or to hire a tax payer? It's not old school, it's self protection.

jtdev 6y ago

Talent and skill development also happen in the workplace... so requiring U.S. companies to hire U.S. workers serves the nation. We see a similar issue in academia, where top programs have a huge cohort of foreign students - students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably).

tisu32 6y ago
That's not quite true in my opinon. Take your example of academia. Many students will chose to stay in the US after (if they can, because salaries tend to be higher than in many other countries) rather than depart. Also, instead of "taking" knowledge, they might actually create some new knowledge. Think about how many brilliant professors in US universities were once foreign post-docs there. If the US chooses to close its borders to this sort of talent, it will considerably weaken itself in the longer term against countries enacting more rational immigration policies.
- jtdev 6y ago
  And many students choose to return to their origin countries... some of these countries are even exerting influence on our academic institutions, e.g., China’s “Confucius Institute” model. If you think that’s in the interest of the U.S. you’re being willfully ignorant.
  - tisu32 6y ago
    That's not what I said. Yes, some students (a small minority) will be acting in the interests of other countries. Overall, the US is a net winner in terms of benefits vs costs of foreign students. This is one of the reasons many colleges are currently under strong financial strain: no international students to pay the bills. Would you rather close borders to all foreign students?
    - jtdev 6y ago
      Maybe. American working class students have been priced out of many top academic programs, yet foreign students continued to pile in, solidifying the prohibitive cost of these programs. How is that a good thing? I’m personally happy to see these institutions struggle... they clearly need to find a way to serve more than the wealthy elite here and abroad.
      - 908B64B197 6y ago
        How else are universities supposed to finance these programs?
        jtdev 6y ago
        Most have multi-billion dollar endowments and run their campuses like country clubs for the world’s elite’s kids.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
The US is incredibly lucky that so many of the smartest people in the world come to do research at its universities. Most countries would love to be in that position. Cutting off that immigration in order to "serve the nation" would be incredibly short-sighted. > students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably). Or, if they're allowed to, remain in the US and contribute to its continued technological and scientific dominance. Even if they eventually leave the US, they don't just soak up knowledge while they're in the US. Most actual research is done by graduate students, for relatively meager pay. The US has a continual influx of extremely smart people who are willing to work relatively cheaply to keep American research institutions at the forefront of scientific research. How is this a bad deal for the United States?
- jtdev 6y ago
  It’s about balance... what SV is doing with H1B is not about keeping the U.S. at “the forefront of scientific research”.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    I was talking about academia, which is why I said "scientific research." What SV is doing is perpetuating US dominance in software (and some hardware development fields). If most of the skilled software engineers in the world become off-limits to SV companies, then the global software industry will cease to be so heavily concentrated in SV. It's strange and amusing to see people earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year complaining about foreigners undercutting their salaries. They imagine that if immigration is restricted, then the open jobs will go to Americans. The reality is that the jobs will leave. Aesop must have written a fable about this sort of situation.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jtdev 6y ago
      Do you think Xi and Modi would be allowing their citizens to work and study in the U.S. if it were not advantageous to China and India?
908B64B197 6y ago
That's a huge competitive advantage. Country X gets the top students from country X, the US gets the top students from the world! That smart TA from X European country helping American undergrads on that problem set? He's not helping undergrads from his country. He's not publishing papers that would boost his country's schools either. One might ask if the lab he works at would even exist without foreign grad students! Would there be enough native applicants to staff it? Graduate school isn't a zero sum game. It's an ecosystem and ecosystems have a huge network effect.

munk-a 6y ago

We're in a bad position today - but we should be aware that an under-investment in education and other social services has caused our tax payers to not be the best candidates.

rhexs 6y ago
Would love a citation on this one. Forcing above average American students into cram schools to memorize leetcode problems would probably help make Americans “the best candidates” for the whiteboard merry-go-round, but I have a strange feeling interviews would start morphing again if that happened.
- username90 6y ago
  American students are very reluctant to study stem compared to most rich countries so USA wouldn't be able to compete with the rest of the world without importing talent. So the choice is to let companies import talent or see them move to another country.
  - woeirua 6y ago
    They're already outsourcing the jobs to other countries because of cost regardless of talent level. If the US did away with the H1B visa entirely, companies here would hire people they would have previously overlooked and train them to be as competent as what they would have hired abroad.
    - username90 6y ago
      Facebook already trains people, they hire a ton of inexperienced people every year and train them to become software engineers. All they require is that you are smart/hard working enough to pass their tests.

tisu32 6y ago

That's true, but there are many ways to "serve the nation". Note that a foreigner who comes to work in a country will also be a tax payer, the same way a US citizen is. In addition, given the barriers to entry, they might be more qualified than the equivalent "native" employee (since the company is willing to pull the extra effort). They might become citizens after some time as well. Also, if you make it hard to hire necessary talent from abroad (as is the case in the US, and to a lesser extent in Europe as well), you end up making your own companies weaker in the process.

bassman9000 6y ago
But we know how the system is used today, not in the hypothetical: to hire 30-40% cheaper, and to hire people that, for years, will have fewer rights than citizens.
- tisu32 6y ago
  That is not always true: top tier companies like FB (the subject of this article), Google pay internationals the same as locals. As for the issue of rights I fully agree: much better to instead give foreigners much more security when they immigrate in terms of visas.

fishywang 6y ago

Can you elaborate on what do you mean by "or to hire a tax payer"? If you hire the best person overseas and bring them to the US to work via immigration process, that person becomes a tax payer to the US, no?