8 ms·

I think you just made the Justice Department's case for them. An H-1B is intended for individuals with specialized skillsets. The fact that Facebook engages in

I think you just made the Justice Department's case for them. An H-1B is intended for individuals with specialized skillsets. The fact that Facebook engages in this form of mass, generic recruiting underscores the fact that they are not seeking out rare skillsets and don't really need to utilize this program to find people matching the required criteria.

rayiner 6y ago
Bingo. My dad came over here in an H1-B because his company needed a public health expert with experience in Bangladesh. There were probably a handful of people in the world with that background. The company wasn’t going to find an American with those skills. I’m sympathetic to the idea that we should have a generic immigration mechanism for skilled workers. But we don’t have that. Congress hasn’t created one because the American people won’t support one. (Or at least, the parties that want such a thing aren’t willing to spend political capital on it so long as they can kick the can down the road by abusing the current system).
- triceratops 6y ago
  It sounds like your dad should've come in on the O-1.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    It's not mutually exclusive. If a company has H-1B quota that is unused, it may be beneficial for the company to sponsor under the H-1B directive rather than start a new process for an O-1. O-1s are also significantly difficult to qualify for; it is unclear whether an "average" public health expert would qualify.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    O-1 didn’t exit back then.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      Gotcha. The H-1B was first created in the 1950s for aliens of "distinguished merit and ability". In 1990, it became a visa for workers in a "specialty occupation". The 1990 law also added the O-1 visa.[1] It sounds like the H visa was rebadged as the O visa and a new skilled worker visa was named the H visa. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Creation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Creation
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Gotcha. The H-1B was first created in the 1950s for aliens of "distinguished merit and ability". No it wasn't (as your own link clearly states), the H-1 was created in the 1950s, but the the H-1B was created in the 1990 INA, along with statutory dual intent for the H-1 category, and along with the creation of the O-1.
        triceratops 6y ago
        Sheesh ok. The H visa was created in the 1950s. Happy?
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    O-1 requirements are very strict, and it’s not enough to just be an expert on a random arcane topic X.
- damnyou 6y ago
  Stop retconning history. The H-1B has always been meant as a path to permanent residence, which is why it has been dual intent since the beginning. The AC21 indefinite extensions were added because the per-country backlogs were not anticipated back when the program was created. But it has always, from the very beginning, built a path to permanent residence in via EB2, EB3 and the dual intent provision. Edit: The person replying to me about the H1B not being dual intent from the beginning is wrong. I have receipts. The H1B was introduced in the Immigration Act of 1990. https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/358/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/358... > `(h) The fact that an alien is the beneficiary of an application for a preference status filed under section 204 or has otherwise sought permanent residence in the United States shall not constitute evidence of an intention to abandon a foreign residence for purposes of obtaining a visa as a nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (H)(i) or (L) of section 101(a)(15) or otherwise obtaining or maintaining the status of a nonimmigrant described in such subparagraph, if the alien had obtained a change of status under section 248 to a classification as such a nonimmigrant before the alien's most recent departure from the United States.'. Edit to respond to the second reply: The H-1B is dual intent. I did not make any claims about a visa category that no longer exists. Besides, the argument about whether the H-1B is an update or a new category doesn't matter -- it is clear that Congress intended for the H-1B, as created (or updated if you will) in 1990, to be a path to permanent residence. The assertion that it was never intended that way is ahistorical. Further edit: It sounds like rayiner's dad came in on an older H-1 which indeed didn't have the dual intent provision, not an H-1B which does. The details matter here! Further, further edit: > The only reason you need “dual intent” is because the law still requires H1-B holders to have non-immigrant intent. I literally pointed to the provision of the 1990 Act which does not require non-immigrant intent for people in H and L statuses. This is what Congress intended. Of course the H-1B isn't an immigrant visa. It is a dual intent visa, in that it preserves the option value of not having to become a green card holder (and thus pay US taxes worldwide if you decide to leave later, etc.) So someone on an H-1B can choose to become a permanent resident, but doesn't have to become one. I'm sympathetic to the argument that people should have to decide within a few years either to leave or to stay permanently, but for that the green card backlogs need to be eliminated by statute.
  - 6y ago
lacker 6y ago
An H-1B is intended for individuals with specialized skillsets. Specialized, yes, but it isn't supposed to be for completely unique skills. If someone is one of the top 100,000 software engineers in the world, that is a specialized skill set. And it makes sense for our country to encourage those people to immigrate.
- rayiner 6y ago
  > And it makes sense for our country to encourage those people to immigrate. That’s a decision for Congress to make and it hasn’t done that. What it has created is a temporary immigration system for skilled workers. The skills don’t have to be unique, but employers must prove that they can’t find workers with that skill set domestically at prevailing wage rates. And that it seems absurd for places like Facebook to say that when they reject so many applications from talented developers.
  - gautamdivgi 6y ago
    That it has a fairly well documented system I suppose? Their interviews are well defined. They tell you what their interviewers will look for. The hire/no-hire decision is made by a panel not a single individual. Whether tech interviews should be algorithmic or not is beside the point. But they have a very well-defined process. So every rejection and acceptance is probably very well documented.
  - lacker 6y ago
    And that it seems absurd for places like Facebook to say that when they reject so many applications from talented developers. It isn't absurd at all. Facebook is one of the companies doing this the right way. Facebook interviews H1-B candidates in exactly the same way it interviews American citizens, and they pay the same to H1-Bs and American citizens in the same role. When they reject an American candidate, it's because they don't think that candidate is sufficiently skilled, not because they want to hire a foreigner with the same skills for cheaper.
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
damnyou 6y ago
No, the O-1 is meant for individuals with specialized skillsets. The H-1B is meant for workers with a bachelor's degree or above, or equivalent experience. Besides, the idea of trying to segregate workers like this is bogus anyway. Fuck the police state.
triceratops 6y ago
"Specialized" != "rare". An auto mechanic has specialized skills, in that a general person on the street can't do that job. Auto mechanics aren't rare. Also, the proportion of the total population that's capable of getting a job at FB is quite small. Within FB the people are largely interchangeable, precisely because of that high hiring bar. Everyone who's hired is smart, so they can all do everything (in theory).
- bluedino 6y ago
  Porsche-certified mechanics, are rare though.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Right, they're specialized and rare.
- leakybit 6y ago
  It's not the governments problem that FB's hiring bar is so high.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    I don't even know what to make of this.
usaar333 6y ago
Well, they are rare though. If I have a problem finding 2,000 qualified people in X time then that skill is rare.(I recognize "qualified" is the company's threshold to call). The problem at the core is the law itself. Why don't we instead just auction off visas to improve efficiency?
- Jare 6y ago
  > Why don't we instead just auction off visas to improve efficiency? The areas with lower cost and wages can't compete attracting local talent, but auctions would make it even harder for them to attract foreign talent as well. It's a losing proposition for pretty much everyone.
- Closi 6y ago
  Do you think they have a problem finding 2,000 if they are paying market rate, or can you suspect that this is seen as a cheap alternative for getting equivalently skilled people at a lower cost?
  - usaar333 6y ago
    Facebook tends to be one of the highest payers in industry. It's possible paying even higher would net more people, but overall math suggests the best N people won't necessary be US citizens or permanent residents.
    - Closi 6y ago
      The law doesn't say you can hire the best person if they are abroad though. It effectively says you can't hire a better person from abroad if there is a person who is good-enough domestically. (I'm only saying what the law says, not what is best for Facebook, the USA, or even what is morally right)
      - usaar333 6y ago
        "qualified" is completely arbitrary. I can just set the threshold high enough such that there aren't enough "qualified" people domestically.
safog 6y ago
Mass generic recruiting doesn't mean that the jobs being filled aren't highly specialized. They're not hiring cafeteria workers on a H1b. SWE is a specialization and job descriptions typically ask for things like experience dealing with high QPS distributed systems which is a very specific skillset.
flowerlad 6y ago
> underscores the fact that they are not seeking out rare skillsets Have you checked out FB salaries? They pay upwards of $200K for a fresh CS graduate. Compare that to a mechanical or chemical engineering graduate that makes $60K at best. You really think they would pay 3x if the skills aren't rare?
- one2know 6y ago
  They pay more because they are a fucking GANG and they are probably paying a cut of that 200k up the chain to the people from their own country.

rayiner 6y ago

Bingo. My dad came over here in an H1-B because his company needed a public health expert with experience in Bangladesh. There were probably a handful of people in the world with that background. The company wasn’t going to find an American with those skills. I’m sympathetic to the idea that we should have a generic immigration mechanism for skilled workers. But we don’t have that. Congress hasn’t created one because the American people won’t support one. (Or at least, the parties that want such a thing aren’t willing to spend political capital on it so long as they can kick the can down the road by abusing the current system).

triceratops 6y ago
It sounds like your dad should've come in on the O-1.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  It's not mutually exclusive. If a company has H-1B quota that is unused, it may be beneficial for the company to sponsor under the H-1B directive rather than start a new process for an O-1. O-1s are also significantly difficult to qualify for; it is unclear whether an "average" public health expert would qualify.
- rayiner 6y ago
  O-1 didn’t exit back then.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Gotcha. The H-1B was first created in the 1950s for aliens of "distinguished merit and ability". In 1990, it became a visa for workers in a "specialty occupation". The 1990 law also added the O-1 visa.[1] It sounds like the H visa was rebadged as the O visa and a new skilled worker visa was named the H visa. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Creation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Creation
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Gotcha. The H-1B was first created in the 1950s for aliens of "distinguished merit and ability". No it wasn't (as your own link clearly states), the H-1 was created in the 1950s, but the the H-1B was created in the 1990 INA, along with statutory dual intent for the H-1 category, and along with the creation of the O-1.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        Sheesh ok. The H visa was created in the 1950s. Happy?
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  O-1 requirements are very strict, and it’s not enough to just be an expert on a random arcane topic X.
damnyou 6y ago
Stop retconning history. The H-1B has always been meant as a path to permanent residence, which is why it has been dual intent since the beginning. The AC21 indefinite extensions were added because the per-country backlogs were not anticipated back when the program was created. But it has always, from the very beginning, built a path to permanent residence in via EB2, EB3 and the dual intent provision. Edit: The person replying to me about the H1B not being dual intent from the beginning is wrong. I have receipts. The H1B was introduced in the Immigration Act of 1990. https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/358/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/358... > `(h) The fact that an alien is the beneficiary of an application for a preference status filed under section 204 or has otherwise sought permanent residence in the United States shall not constitute evidence of an intention to abandon a foreign residence for purposes of obtaining a visa as a nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (H)(i) or (L) of section 101(a)(15) or otherwise obtaining or maintaining the status of a nonimmigrant described in such subparagraph, if the alien had obtained a change of status under section 248 to a classification as such a nonimmigrant before the alien's most recent departure from the United States.'. Edit to respond to the second reply: The H-1B is dual intent. I did not make any claims about a visa category that no longer exists. Besides, the argument about whether the H-1B is an update or a new category doesn't matter -- it is clear that Congress intended for the H-1B, as created (or updated if you will) in 1990, to be a path to permanent residence. The assertion that it was never intended that way is ahistorical. Further edit: It sounds like rayiner's dad came in on an older H-1 which indeed didn't have the dual intent provision, not an H-1B which does. The details matter here! Further, further edit: > The only reason you need “dual intent” is because the law still requires H1-B holders to have non-immigrant intent. I literally pointed to the provision of the 1990 Act which does not require non-immigrant intent for people in H and L statuses. This is what Congress intended. Of course the H-1B isn't an immigrant visa. It is a dual intent visa, in that it preserves the option value of not having to become a green card holder (and thus pay US taxes worldwide if you decide to leave later, etc.) So someone on an H-1B can choose to become a permanent resident, but doesn't have to become one. I'm sympathetic to the argument that people should have to decide within a few years either to leave or to stay permanently, but for that the green card backlogs need to be eliminated by statute.
- 6y ago

lacker 6y ago

An H-1B is intended for individuals with specialized skillsets. Specialized, yes, but it isn't supposed to be for completely unique skills. If someone is one of the top 100,000 software engineers in the world, that is a specialized skill set. And it makes sense for our country to encourage those people to immigrate.

rayiner 6y ago
> And it makes sense for our country to encourage those people to immigrate. That’s a decision for Congress to make and it hasn’t done that. What it has created is a temporary immigration system for skilled workers. The skills don’t have to be unique, but employers must prove that they can’t find workers with that skill set domestically at prevailing wage rates. And that it seems absurd for places like Facebook to say that when they reject so many applications from talented developers.
- gautamdivgi 6y ago
  That it has a fairly well documented system I suppose? Their interviews are well defined. They tell you what their interviewers will look for. The hire/no-hire decision is made by a panel not a single individual. Whether tech interviews should be algorithmic or not is beside the point. But they have a very well-defined process. So every rejection and acceptance is probably very well documented.
- lacker 6y ago
  And that it seems absurd for places like Facebook to say that when they reject so many applications from talented developers. It isn't absurd at all. Facebook is one of the companies doing this the right way. Facebook interviews H1-B candidates in exactly the same way it interviews American citizens, and they pay the same to H1-Bs and American citizens in the same role. When they reject an American candidate, it's because they don't think that candidate is sufficiently skilled, not because they want to hire a foreigner with the same skills for cheaper.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago

damnyou 6y ago

No, the O-1 is meant for individuals with specialized skillsets. The H-1B is meant for workers with a bachelor's degree or above, or equivalent experience. Besides, the idea of trying to segregate workers like this is bogus anyway. Fuck the police state.

triceratops 6y ago

"Specialized" != "rare". An auto mechanic has specialized skills, in that a general person on the street can't do that job. Auto mechanics aren't rare. Also, the proportion of the total population that's capable of getting a job at FB is quite small. Within FB the people are largely interchangeable, precisely because of that high hiring bar. Everyone who's hired is smart, so they can all do everything (in theory).

bluedino 6y ago
Porsche-certified mechanics, are rare though.
- triceratops 6y ago
  Right, they're specialized and rare.
leakybit 6y ago
It's not the governments problem that FB's hiring bar is so high.
- triceratops 6y ago
  I don't even know what to make of this.

usaar333 6y ago

Well, they are rare though. If I have a problem finding 2,000 qualified people in X time then that skill is rare.(I recognize "qualified" is the company's threshold to call). The problem at the core is the law itself. Why don't we instead just auction off visas to improve efficiency?

Jare 6y ago
> Why don't we instead just auction off visas to improve efficiency? The areas with lower cost and wages can't compete attracting local talent, but auctions would make it even harder for them to attract foreign talent as well. It's a losing proposition for pretty much everyone.
Closi 6y ago
Do you think they have a problem finding 2,000 if they are paying market rate, or can you suspect that this is seen as a cheap alternative for getting equivalently skilled people at a lower cost?
- usaar333 6y ago
  Facebook tends to be one of the highest payers in industry. It's possible paying even higher would net more people, but overall math suggests the best N people won't necessary be US citizens or permanent residents.
  - Closi 6y ago
    The law doesn't say you can hire the best person if they are abroad though. It effectively says you can't hire a better person from abroad if there is a person who is good-enough domestically. (I'm only saying what the law says, not what is best for Facebook, the USA, or even what is morally right)
    - usaar333 6y ago
      "qualified" is completely arbitrary. I can just set the threshold high enough such that there aren't enough "qualified" people domestically.

safog 6y ago

Mass generic recruiting doesn't mean that the jobs being filled aren't highly specialized. They're not hiring cafeteria workers on a H1b. SWE is a specialization and job descriptions typically ask for things like experience dealing with high QPS distributed systems which is a very specific skillset.

flowerlad 6y ago

> underscores the fact that they are not seeking out rare skillsets Have you checked out FB salaries? They pay upwards of $200K for a fresh CS graduate. Compare that to a mechanical or chemical engineering graduate that makes $60K at best. You really think they would pay 3x if the skills aren't rare?

one2know 6y ago
They pay more because they are a fucking GANG and they are probably paying a cut of that 200k up the chain to the people from their own country.