9 ms·

Is it so hard to get american workers? Don't they pay enough? Or why do they need foreigners?

emteycz 6y ago
You want foreigners for diversity of workplace and ideas, for their different perspectives, for their direct exposure and intrinsic knowledge of their home countries, for the different expertise taught at their different schools...
- disposekinetics 6y ago
  Title VII of the civil rights act makes it illegal to classify applicants on the basis of national origin. If you are taking that into consideration while hiring you are in violation of the civil rights act.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    National origin is not the only way to measure diversity. Anyways, thankfully neither me nor my company is in the USA. If this is the reason why one can't build a diverse workplace, you built a very sad country.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  That has nothing to do with why Facebook wants to hire foreigners. Facebook wants to hire foreigners because they want to hire essentially everyone who passes their interviews, and only some subset of those are American.
jedberg 6y ago
Only 4.25% of the world's population lives in the US. It's mathematically impossible for all the best people to already live here.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  What % of that is developers? What is the global demand for software developers?
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Does it matter? There is no realistic way that all the best developers, or even all the good developers, already live in the USA.
    - throw_m239339 6y ago
      > Does it matter? There is no realistic way that all the best developers, or even all the good developers, already live in the USA. Yes, it does, you used a figure to suit your argument, now people are rightfully asking for a more relevant figure to see if your argument still stands. So what % of developers live in USA? The rest is just purely your opinion.
      - jedberg 6y ago
        I would contend that the unknowable numbers the person is asking for are not actually relevant to the argument at all.
        shiftpgdn 6y ago
        It is a knowable number you're just omitting it to suit your argument.
        throw_m239339 6y ago
        > I would contend that the unknowable numbers the person is asking for are not actually relevant to the argument at all. More like you don't want to know, or it would turn your argument into an absurdity.
        jedberg 6y ago
Bishop_ 6y ago
I'm making an assumption that facebook only wants to hire what they perceive is the top 1% (Or some other number) of programmers regardless of background.
damnencryption 6y ago
Maybe they want some employees to implement scary backdoors or portals and it's easier to control an immigrant dependent on Facebook or with different sense of morality.
randomdata 6y ago
Same reason bands from all over the world come to perform in America (well, in normal years, at least) even though America is full of performing musicians who are lucky if they ever make a penny? What reason is there to see the Rolling Stones when <band I have never heard of> is playing? When the job is more than perfectly repeatable steps defined by an employer, which certainly describes the development of software, where anyone can be replaced with anyone else, there is sometimes value in specific people doing the job. People who may or may not be American.
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  Or maybe because foreigners are cheaper, are willing to work more for their pay, and even if treated badly, they won't quit, because they'll have to leave their country then.
  - randomdata 6y ago
    But, in fact, the domestic performers are the cheaper ones. The employer still chooses the Rolling Stones more often than not, despite a substantially higher cost to employ them over a band that has never been heard of. Cost does not seem to be a consideration. And if not music, the same holds true everywhere. There are all kinds of Americans willing to throw themselves into a job – especially a job at prestigious company like Facebook – for minimum wage, or even an unpaid position (often known as an internship). No problem at all. It is definitely not lack of Americans willing to work for almost nothing to even literally nothing. Those people are in abundance – particularly right now with higher than usual unemployment rates.
damnyou 6y ago
There is no moral obligation to hire a worker just because a particular state blessed them with a set of papers, usually because they were born on the right side of a line drawn in the middle of a desert. edit to respond: Fine, then anyone willing to pay taxes in the US should get to work in the US. Again, fuck the police state. People and communities matter, the state can burn to the ground for all I care.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  But you can always find people in a shitty to do the job for cheaper than a local worker. why would local workers (=voters) want that? The government should make rules that make lives better for their citizens,... other citizens have their own governments to take care of them.
akhilcacharya 6y ago
Its because many Americans don't pass the interviews. Many more do. BigTech generally hires agnostic of citizenship or current status. Source: Am American, and did not pass the interviews 2 years ago
umanwizard 6y ago
Why shouldn't they hire foreigners? It is a global company. When visa policies are tightened, FAANG companies don't decide "well, instead of hiring this Indian who passed our interview process, we'll hire an American who failed it instead". Rather, they expand their offices in places with less restrictive visa policies, like London or Vancouver.
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  ...or they hire an american, who they have to pay money than a foreigner, and is not tied to them via their visa.
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Indeed, one could plausibly imagine that happening! But in fact, at Facebook, it doesn’t.
- sjg007 6y ago
  Except that they really don't. That may change post pandemic and would change in the long term due to policy decisions. But global offices tend to organize around specific functions and/or products. A lot happen by acquisition. You need, not just the talented employee but all of the support systems in place around them to operate in that country. That cost is a lot higher than bringing them over. Then you have the risk of them leaving too. Way more expensive than employing 4k H1Bs. Then once you get that office established you can bring people over on L1 visas I believe.
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    > global offices tend to organize around specific functions and/or products Simply not true for Facebook. The London office has a wide variety of different teams working on different projects, often directly on the same projects as teams in the US offices.
    - sjg007 6y ago
slumdev 6y ago
I'll just say it: They don't pay enough. Someone who can pass their interviews and earn $300k in SF can just as easily earn $150k in Mayberry. And that $150k goes a lot farther in Mayberry than $300k does in San Francisco. I'd gladly work for them if Zuck promises that I can remain in Mayberry while I draw a Facebook salary.

You want foreigners for diversity of workplace and ideas, for their different perspectives, for their direct exposure and intrinsic knowledge of their home countries, for the different expertise taught at their different schools...

disposekinetics 6y ago
Title VII of the civil rights act makes it illegal to classify applicants on the basis of national origin. If you are taking that into consideration while hiring you are in violation of the civil rights act.
- emteycz 6y ago
  National origin is not the only way to measure diversity. Anyways, thankfully neither me nor my company is in the USA. If this is the reason why one can't build a diverse workplace, you built a very sad country.
umanwizard 6y ago
That has nothing to do with why Facebook wants to hire foreigners. Facebook wants to hire foreigners because they want to hire essentially everyone who passes their interviews, and only some subset of those are American.

jedberg 6y ago

Only 4.25% of the world's population lives in the US. It's mathematically impossible for all the best people to already live here.

shiftpgdn 6y ago
What % of that is developers? What is the global demand for software developers?
- jedberg 6y ago
  Does it matter? There is no realistic way that all the best developers, or even all the good developers, already live in the USA.
  - throw_m239339 6y ago
    > Does it matter? There is no realistic way that all the best developers, or even all the good developers, already live in the USA. Yes, it does, you used a figure to suit your argument, now people are rightfully asking for a more relevant figure to see if your argument still stands. So what % of developers live in USA? The rest is just purely your opinion.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      I would contend that the unknowable numbers the person is asking for are not actually relevant to the argument at all.
      - shiftpgdn 6y ago
        It is a knowable number you're just omitting it to suit your argument.
      - throw_m239339 6y ago
        > I would contend that the unknowable numbers the person is asking for are not actually relevant to the argument at all. More like you don't want to know, or it would turn your argument into an absurdity.
        jedberg 6y ago

Bishop_ 6y ago

I'm making an assumption that facebook only wants to hire what they perceive is the top 1% (Or some other number) of programmers regardless of background.

damnencryption 6y ago

Maybe they want some employees to implement scary backdoors or portals and it's easier to control an immigrant dependent on Facebook or with different sense of morality.

randomdata 6y ago

Same reason bands from all over the world come to perform in America (well, in normal years, at least) even though America is full of performing musicians who are lucky if they ever make a penny? What reason is there to see the Rolling Stones when <band I have never heard of> is playing? When the job is more than perfectly repeatable steps defined by an employer, which certainly describes the development of software, where anyone can be replaced with anyone else, there is sometimes value in specific people doing the job. People who may or may not be American.

ajsnigrutin 6y ago
Or maybe because foreigners are cheaper, are willing to work more for their pay, and even if treated badly, they won't quit, because they'll have to leave their country then.
- randomdata 6y ago
  But, in fact, the domestic performers are the cheaper ones. The employer still chooses the Rolling Stones more often than not, despite a substantially higher cost to employ them over a band that has never been heard of. Cost does not seem to be a consideration. And if not music, the same holds true everywhere. There are all kinds of Americans willing to throw themselves into a job – especially a job at prestigious company like Facebook – for minimum wage, or even an unpaid position (often known as an internship). No problem at all. It is definitely not lack of Americans willing to work for almost nothing to even literally nothing. Those people are in abundance – particularly right now with higher than usual unemployment rates.

damnyou 6y ago

There is no moral obligation to hire a worker just because a particular state blessed them with a set of papers, usually because they were born on the right side of a line drawn in the middle of a desert. edit to respond: Fine, then anyone willing to pay taxes in the US should get to work in the US. Again, fuck the police state. People and communities matter, the state can burn to the ground for all I care.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ajsnigrutin 6y ago
But you can always find people in a shitty to do the job for cheaper than a local worker. why would local workers (=voters) want that? The government should make rules that make lives better for their citizens,... other citizens have their own governments to take care of them.

akhilcacharya 6y ago

Its because many Americans don't pass the interviews. Many more do. BigTech generally hires agnostic of citizenship or current status. Source: Am American, and did not pass the interviews 2 years ago

umanwizard 6y ago

Why shouldn't they hire foreigners? It is a global company. When visa policies are tightened, FAANG companies don't decide "well, instead of hiring this Indian who passed our interview process, we'll hire an American who failed it instead". Rather, they expand their offices in places with less restrictive visa policies, like London or Vancouver.

ajsnigrutin 6y ago
...or they hire an american, who they have to pay money than a foreigner, and is not tied to them via their visa.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Indeed, one could plausibly imagine that happening! But in fact, at Facebook, it doesn’t.
sjg007 6y ago
Except that they really don't. That may change post pandemic and would change in the long term due to policy decisions. But global offices tend to organize around specific functions and/or products. A lot happen by acquisition. You need, not just the talented employee but all of the support systems in place around them to operate in that country. That cost is a lot higher than bringing them over. Then you have the risk of them leaving too. Way more expensive than employing 4k H1Bs. Then once you get that office established you can bring people over on L1 visas I believe.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  > global offices tend to organize around specific functions and/or products Simply not true for Facebook. The London office has a wide variety of different teams working on different projects, often directly on the same projects as teams in the US offices.
  - sjg007 6y ago

slumdev 6y ago

I'll just say it: They don't pay enough. Someone who can pass their interviews and earn $300k in SF can just as easily earn $150k in Mayberry. And that $150k goes a lot farther in Mayberry than $300k does in San Francisco. I'd gladly work for them if Zuck promises that I can remain in Mayberry while I draw a Facebook salary.