4 ms·

> Her point is more than that. I think that she was trying to say that ML systems have an inherent bias that is independent of their data. In general I take th

> Her point is more than that. I think that she was trying to say that ML systems have an inherent bias that is independent of their data. In general I take these types of tropes to be cloaked (politically correct) way of saying "fuck x group".

mlyle 6y ago
Eh. I think there's some legitimate concern that AI isn't fair to marginalized groups for a variety of reasons. Dataset bias is only one way this occurs, though. Even if you include more colored faces, you still may be taking pictures with a camera that doesn't capture as much contrast. Or even if you retrain, you may have chosen model structure to optimize behavior in a biased dataset. Or... if you're considering the cost of misidentification by a facial recognition system used by, say, police, you need to be sure that you take a perspective that applies to society as a whole and not to your own interactions with police. It's perfectly reasonable to say "AI is worsening the experience of minorities in various ways" and to differ with responses that assume with slight additional care in curating datasets that the problem will be completely solved.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  One of the huge questions is : who takes responsibility for the issues with the black box learning systems ? In France, since you have to be able to explain in plain words the algorithm that was used to help to make an administrative decision, it indirectly makes these black box learning systems illegal. (And yet they probably already have been used by the police?) Now, the naive response is that the engineer that implemented a system should take responsibility for any harm done by the system - and I guess that if these engineers could lose their license to use a computer and face jail time, they might also start to put pressure upstream on researchers to provide better systems ?
sudosysgen 6y ago
I'm not sure I understood your comment correctly, so I'll apologize in advance if I misunderstood. That statement is contained in a paper I linked that dates from 1980. I'm pretty sure it's factually correct, because I'm trying to make nothing but a demonstration that an idée reçue, that ML systems are only based due to their data, is incorrect. There's really no cloaked message behind it, and I'm not sure why one would think there is (hence the disclaimer). I think it's a pretty uncharitable interpretation.
- chokeartist 6y ago
  > That statement is contained in a paper I linked that dates from 1980. I'm pretty sure it's factually correct, because I'm trying to make nothing but a demonstration that an idée reçue, that ML systems are only based due to their data, is incorrect. That's reasonable. I may have taken the initial text in the wrong context. Thanks for clarifying. To expand on my prior comment of "Fuck x group", perhaps the tone of prior tweets by Timnit Gebru short-cut me mentally, namely this one: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1274809418475950080 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1274809418475950080 > Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you follow. Just listen. And learn from scholars like @ruha9 We even brought her to your house, your conference. It strikes me as very unprofessional, and frankly I believe her anti-white bias shone through in that instance. Racism is racism, even for "good" purposes.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    I think there is a bit of a double standard here. I try in general to be as charitable to both sides of an agreement possible. If your standard for uncharitability is such that the linked tweet is a proof of racism, I don't understand why one would take a tweet claiming against overwhelming evidence at face value. Personally, I don't think either indicate racism. I see the link you tweeted as an excessively abrasive response at a dismissive and reductive understanding of an issue, bias in learning system, despite research old and new. At the same time, I see LeCun's dismissal as a genuinely held position in error. To see the first as racist but the second as okay seems to be a case of being much more charitable to one side than the other, though I understand how it may look this way.
    - chokeartist 6y ago
      Whatever dude. You people are delusional. Stop bending over backwards to defend dumb ideas. To do so otherwise opens you up to mockery and ridicule of your otherwise substantive thoughts.

mlyle 6y ago

Eh. I think there's some legitimate concern that AI isn't fair to marginalized groups for a variety of reasons. Dataset bias is only one way this occurs, though. Even if you include more colored faces, you still may be taking pictures with a camera that doesn't capture as much contrast. Or even if you retrain, you may have chosen model structure to optimize behavior in a biased dataset. Or... if you're considering the cost of misidentification by a facial recognition system used by, say, police, you need to be sure that you take a perspective that applies to society as a whole and not to your own interactions with police. It's perfectly reasonable to say "AI is worsening the experience of minorities in various ways" and to differ with responses that assume with slight additional care in curating datasets that the problem will be completely solved.

BlueTemplar 6y ago
One of the huge questions is : who takes responsibility for the issues with the black box learning systems ? In France, since you have to be able to explain in plain words the algorithm that was used to help to make an administrative decision, it indirectly makes these black box learning systems illegal. (And yet they probably already have been used by the police?) Now, the naive response is that the engineer that implemented a system should take responsibility for any harm done by the system - and I guess that if these engineers could lose their license to use a computer and face jail time, they might also start to put pressure upstream on researchers to provide better systems ?

sudosysgen 6y ago

I'm not sure I understood your comment correctly, so I'll apologize in advance if I misunderstood. That statement is contained in a paper I linked that dates from 1980. I'm pretty sure it's factually correct, because I'm trying to make nothing but a demonstration that an idée reçue, that ML systems are only based due to their data, is incorrect. There's really no cloaked message behind it, and I'm not sure why one would think there is (hence the disclaimer). I think it's a pretty uncharitable interpretation.

chokeartist 6y ago
> That statement is contained in a paper I linked that dates from 1980. I'm pretty sure it's factually correct, because I'm trying to make nothing but a demonstration that an idée reçue, that ML systems are only based due to their data, is incorrect. That's reasonable. I may have taken the initial text in the wrong context. Thanks for clarifying. To expand on my prior comment of "Fuck x group", perhaps the tone of prior tweets by Timnit Gebru short-cut me mentally, namely this one: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1274809418475950080 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1274809418475950080 > Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you follow. Just listen. And learn from scholars like @ruha9 We even brought her to your house, your conference. It strikes me as very unprofessional, and frankly I believe her anti-white bias shone through in that instance. Racism is racism, even for "good" purposes.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  I think there is a bit of a double standard here. I try in general to be as charitable to both sides of an agreement possible. If your standard for uncharitability is such that the linked tweet is a proof of racism, I don't understand why one would take a tweet claiming against overwhelming evidence at face value. Personally, I don't think either indicate racism. I see the link you tweeted as an excessively abrasive response at a dismissive and reductive understanding of an issue, bias in learning system, despite research old and new. At the same time, I see LeCun's dismissal as a genuinely held position in error. To see the first as racist but the second as okay seems to be a case of being much more charitable to one side than the other, though I understand how it may look this way.
  - chokeartist 6y ago
    Whatever dude. You people are delusional. Stop bending over backwards to defend dumb ideas. To do so otherwise opens you up to mockery and ridicule of your otherwise substantive thoughts.