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"Cannabis is legal" Not only is cannabis not legal in the Netherlands (it's "illegal but tolerated"), but in recent years the conservative Dutch government has

"Cannabis is legal" Not only is cannabis not legal in the Netherlands (it's "illegal but tolerated"), but in recent years the conservative Dutch government has been successful in closing down a lot of coffeshops (ie. shops that sell cannabis). The Dutch used to be a lot more tolerant in the past.

capableweb 6y ago
> The Dutch used to be a lot more tolerant in the past. And before that a lot less tolerant. And before THAT, a lot more tolerant. And back and forward, for many many years. Amsterdam has a rich history of going between liberal and more close minded, and will probably continue doing so.
- wobbly_bush 6y ago
  That's interesting, what is the driving factor behind the inversions? Is it the typical two groups with opposing political views or something else?
  - jjd33 6y ago
    Don't know about historic but current is US gov and "lobbying" industries paying massive amounts to have drugs banned. Why should you be allowed to use the safe Cannabis that doesn't have any side effects and is dirt cheap to produce instead of the overpriced overly toxic and overly marketed biochemical agent developed by for profit companies.
  - taneq 6y ago
    The same intergenerational pendulum that drives so many human social trends?
    - vonadz 6y ago
      Money?
s_dev 6y ago
>Not only is cannabis not legal in the Netherlands The fact that they're is legal shops selling it suggests there is more nuance than your comment is providing.
- lippel82 6y ago
  They provided the nuance actually in the same sentence, right were you cut off your quote: (it's "illegal but tolerated")
foobiekr 6y ago
What is driving the change? They also banned psilocybin mushrooms (the fruiting body) vs. the mushroom body for some reason (legal as "truffles").
- omnimus 6y ago
  I believe main reason were turists who were not experienced with shrooms. There were some suicides, jumping out of windows stuff like that.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    They did it to protect the tourists? I don't buy it.
    - imnotlost 6y ago
      They did it to protect the locals from the hordes of annoying tourists.
      - pmoriarty 6y ago
        Come on. It's not like "hordes of tourists" were going to the Netherlands to do mushrooms. It's a very fringe, minority activity. Many more tourists were smoking pot, but that's a pretty sedate, quiet activity limited to the confines of a coffeshop or someone's home. By far the most numerous, annoying, and belligerent tourists are going to be the drunk ones, but the Netherlands did not crack down on alcohol consumption.
        throwa20201203 6y ago
        > By far the most numerous, annoying, and belligerent tourists are going to be the drunk ones, but the Netherlands did not crack down on alcohol consumption. This is the most conspicuous thing about drug policy in most countries. In particular it's conspicuous because alcohol (famously) impairs judgment of all other drug-decisions. The main premise of AA is that alcohol is the ultimate gateway drug and cause of relapses. (I don't endorse AA's literalism and AA's attitudes about cannabis border on a crime-against-humanity IMHO. They are so powerful and they have done, and continue to do, SO MUCH DAMAGE by maintaining that old garbage. Founder of AA was a psychonaut anyways. Sigh.) I'm from an opiate-epidemic-plagued state. My family's been affected, every extended family has been affected, every close friend has been affected. (Affected like -- 1+ members of that/their family having severe addiction problems.) And you know what's the most consistent factor in the relapses? Alcohol. It's there every time. This is anecdata of course but ... we are lacking hard data that can displace the anecdotes many of us have. Alcohol abuse is so widespread that we can't really control the variable (seemingly). </rant> @pmoriarty, I really, really appreciate your comments on this thread. Looking forward to the readings that come from the sources you've linked.
khazhoux 6y ago
Huh. I always thought it's legal, but not a hundred percent legal. I mean, you can't walk into a restaurant, roll a joint and start puffing away. You're only supposed to smoke in your home or certain designated places. I was under the impression: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, but if you get stopped by the cops in Amsterdam, it's illegal for them to search you. Am I just misled for the last 25 years?
- dotancohen 6y ago
  I've also heard that you can walk into a movie theater in Amsterdam and buy a beer.
  - dr_dshiv 6y ago
    Lol, or in any other civilized region that cares about citizen freedom. You can also drink a beer in a park, if you can believe it!
    - dotancohen 6y ago
      It's a quote from the same piece of classic literature that the GP is quoting from.
      - maest 6y ago
        They're talking about Pulp Fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIcFP0J5TY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIcFP0J5TY JULES – Okay now, tell me about the hash bars? VINCENT What so you want to know? JULES Well, hash is legal there, right? VINCENT Yeah, it's legal, but is ain't a hundred percent legal. I mean you can't walk into a restaurant, roll a joint, and start puffin' away. You're only supposed to smoke in your home or certain designated places. JULES Those are hash bars? VINCENT Yeah, it breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it and, if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, which doesn't really matter 'cause – get a load of this – if the cops stop you, it's illegal for this to search you. Searching you is a right that the cops in Amsterdam don't have. "Royale with cheese" is part of the same scene.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
That's too bad and probably just forces it underground. People aren't going to stop using it.
brnt 6y ago
This is not a consequence of a conservative government (which isn't a correct description of VVD-led cabinets), but of the (ever so slow) realization that drug-associated crime is spiralling.
roguas 6y ago
I think there is some legal break dance in NL. My understanding was that "last selling hands" as long as they sell in small quantities are considered legal. So coffeeshop selling couple of grams is legit. But how the coffeeshop obtained enough to this transaction over and over is illegal, however not investigated.

capableweb 6y ago

> The Dutch used to be a lot more tolerant in the past. And before that a lot less tolerant. And before THAT, a lot more tolerant. And back and forward, for many many years. Amsterdam has a rich history of going between liberal and more close minded, and will probably continue doing so.

wobbly_bush 6y ago
That's interesting, what is the driving factor behind the inversions? Is it the typical two groups with opposing political views or something else?
- jjd33 6y ago
  Don't know about historic but current is US gov and "lobbying" industries paying massive amounts to have drugs banned. Why should you be allowed to use the safe Cannabis that doesn't have any side effects and is dirt cheap to produce instead of the overpriced overly toxic and overly marketed biochemical agent developed by for profit companies.
- taneq 6y ago
  The same intergenerational pendulum that drives so many human social trends?
  - vonadz 6y ago
    Money?

s_dev 6y ago

>Not only is cannabis not legal in the Netherlands The fact that they're is legal shops selling it suggests there is more nuance than your comment is providing.

lippel82 6y ago
They provided the nuance actually in the same sentence, right were you cut off your quote: (it's "illegal but tolerated")

foobiekr 6y ago

What is driving the change? They also banned psilocybin mushrooms (the fruiting body) vs. the mushroom body for some reason (legal as "truffles").

omnimus 6y ago
I believe main reason were turists who were not experienced with shrooms. There were some suicides, jumping out of windows stuff like that.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  They did it to protect the tourists? I don't buy it.
  - imnotlost 6y ago
    They did it to protect the locals from the hordes of annoying tourists.
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      Come on. It's not like "hordes of tourists" were going to the Netherlands to do mushrooms. It's a very fringe, minority activity. Many more tourists were smoking pot, but that's a pretty sedate, quiet activity limited to the confines of a coffeshop or someone's home. By far the most numerous, annoying, and belligerent tourists are going to be the drunk ones, but the Netherlands did not crack down on alcohol consumption.
      - throwa20201203 6y ago
        > By far the most numerous, annoying, and belligerent tourists are going to be the drunk ones, but the Netherlands did not crack down on alcohol consumption. This is the most conspicuous thing about drug policy in most countries. In particular it's conspicuous because alcohol (famously) impairs judgment of all other drug-decisions. The main premise of AA is that alcohol is the ultimate gateway drug and cause of relapses. (I don't endorse AA's literalism and AA's attitudes about cannabis border on a crime-against-humanity IMHO. They are so powerful and they have done, and continue to do, SO MUCH DAMAGE by maintaining that old garbage. Founder of AA was a psychonaut anyways. Sigh.) I'm from an opiate-epidemic-plagued state. My family's been affected, every extended family has been affected, every close friend has been affected. (Affected like -- 1+ members of that/their family having severe addiction problems.) And you know what's the most consistent factor in the relapses? Alcohol. It's there every time. This is anecdata of course but ... we are lacking hard data that can displace the anecdotes many of us have. Alcohol abuse is so widespread that we can't really control the variable (seemingly). </rant> @pmoriarty, I really, really appreciate your comments on this thread. Looking forward to the readings that come from the sources you've linked.

khazhoux 6y ago

Huh. I always thought it's legal, but not a hundred percent legal. I mean, you can't walk into a restaurant, roll a joint and start puffing away. You're only supposed to smoke in your home or certain designated places. I was under the impression: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, but if you get stopped by the cops in Amsterdam, it's illegal for them to search you. Am I just misled for the last 25 years?

dotancohen 6y ago
I've also heard that you can walk into a movie theater in Amsterdam and buy a beer.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Lol, or in any other civilized region that cares about citizen freedom. You can also drink a beer in a park, if you can believe it!
  - dotancohen 6y ago
    It's a quote from the same piece of classic literature that the GP is quoting from.
    - maest 6y ago
      They're talking about Pulp Fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIcFP0J5TY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIcFP0J5TY JULES – Okay now, tell me about the hash bars? VINCENT What so you want to know? JULES Well, hash is legal there, right? VINCENT Yeah, it's legal, but is ain't a hundred percent legal. I mean you can't walk into a restaurant, roll a joint, and start puffin' away. You're only supposed to smoke in your home or certain designated places. JULES Those are hash bars? VINCENT Yeah, it breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it and, if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, which doesn't really matter 'cause – get a load of this – if the cops stop you, it's illegal for this to search you. Searching you is a right that the cops in Amsterdam don't have. "Royale with cheese" is part of the same scene.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

That's too bad and probably just forces it underground. People aren't going to stop using it.

brnt 6y ago

This is not a consequence of a conservative government (which isn't a correct description of VVD-led cabinets), but of the (ever so slow) realization that drug-associated crime is spiralling.

roguas 6y ago

I think there is some legal break dance in NL. My understanding was that "last selling hands" as long as they sell in small quantities are considered legal. So coffeeshop selling couple of grams is legit. But how the coffeeshop obtained enough to this transaction over and over is illegal, however not investigated.