4 ms·

I think the main points are: 1. Their own struggles aren't new: companies have been trying to fuck workers over since time immemorial, and 2. There is a well-k

I think the main points are: 1. Their own struggles aren't new: companies have been trying to fuck workers over since time immemorial, and 2. There is a well-known solution to these problems: unions. Are you working 16 hours a day, barely able to afford rent + food + utilities, and slipping further into debt every day? It doesn't have to be that way, and we have a really good idea, based on historical facts, about how to fix it.

syshum 6y ago
you do know that Appalachia is still the poorest area in the US, and the unions did not fix the economic problems. yes it provided the employees that were still employed with greater protections, but it is not the utopia you seem to believe it is
- andybak 6y ago
  Nobody claimed a utopia. Extracting natural resources is always going to be a tough job that is ripe for exploitation. Did unions improve the lives of members? They certainly did where I come from. American labour history is more complex (union corruption and take over by organised crime seemed to run deeper)
  - syshum 6y ago
    That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people Where unions are more focused on their own political power than helping workers Or even if in general the union helped the "average worker" the collectivist nature of unions means not everyone will be better off. For example Seniority, and "personal connections" are often more of a driving factor in Unions than merit or work performance. In fact highly efficient hard workers are often driven out of unions or forced to "work slower", etc.
    - DFHippie 6y ago
      >That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people The answer to this is not airy theorizing or anecdotes but statistical evidence. There are many people who do this. See for example figure 9 here: https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
- mcguire 6y ago
  Do you get vacations? Have a (nominally) 40-hour work week?
  - syshum 6y ago
    lol, that is not a valid response to criticize of unions. Sorry but no
    - objectivetruth 6y ago
      And "Appalachia is still a poor region" is not a valid criticism of unions.

syshum 6y ago

you do know that Appalachia is still the poorest area in the US, and the unions did not fix the economic problems. yes it provided the employees that were still employed with greater protections, but it is not the utopia you seem to believe it is

andybak 6y ago
Nobody claimed a utopia. Extracting natural resources is always going to be a tough job that is ripe for exploitation. Did unions improve the lives of members? They certainly did where I come from. American labour history is more complex (union corruption and take over by organised crime seemed to run deeper)
- syshum 6y ago
  That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people Where unions are more focused on their own political power than helping workers Or even if in general the union helped the "average worker" the collectivist nature of unions means not everyone will be better off. For example Seniority, and "personal connections" are often more of a driving factor in Unions than merit or work performance. In fact highly efficient hard workers are often driven out of unions or forced to "work slower", etc.
  - DFHippie 6y ago
    >That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people The answer to this is not airy theorizing or anecdotes but statistical evidence. There are many people who do this. See for example figure 9 here: https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
mcguire 6y ago
Do you get vacations? Have a (nominally) 40-hour work week?
- syshum 6y ago
  lol, that is not a valid response to criticize of unions. Sorry but no
  - objectivetruth 6y ago
    And "Appalachia is still a poor region" is not a valid criticism of unions.