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I respect a history lesson, but honestly, I think old comrade tales are not helpful. I don't mean that it's irrelevant, strictly, but we hear more of these tha

I respect a history lesson, but honestly, I think old comrade tales are not helpful. I don't mean that it's irrelevant, strictly, but we hear more of these than 2020 tales, 2020 strategies and concerns. This is 100 year later, and despite of how many union die hards see it... most workers aren't likely to buy int a centuries long struggle. They're interested in their own lives & jobs.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
_wldu 6y ago
Right, I think the point is that while things have improved since then, workers are still exploited. The only way to change that is for people to band together. Large, diverse, unified groups can bring about change. The coal miners were mostly Irish and German immigrants and African Americans. They all joined together and brought about changes that workers still benefit from today. People in 2020 can do the same.
thomascgalvin 6y ago
I think the main points are: 1. Their own struggles aren't new: companies have been trying to fuck workers over since time immemorial, and 2. There is a well-known solution to these problems: unions. Are you working 16 hours a day, barely able to afford rent + food + utilities, and slipping further into debt every day? It doesn't have to be that way, and we have a really good idea, based on historical facts, about how to fix it.
- syshum 6y ago
  you do know that Appalachia is still the poorest area in the US, and the unions did not fix the economic problems. yes it provided the employees that were still employed with greater protections, but it is not the utopia you seem to believe it is
  - andybak 6y ago
    Nobody claimed a utopia. Extracting natural resources is always going to be a tough job that is ripe for exploitation. Did unions improve the lives of members? They certainly did where I come from. American labour history is more complex (union corruption and take over by organised crime seemed to run deeper)
    - syshum 6y ago
      That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people Where unions are more focused on their own political power than helping workers Or even if in general the union helped the "average worker" the collectivist nature of unions means not everyone will be better off. For example Seniority, and "personal connections" are often more of a driving factor in Unions than merit or work performance. In fact highly efficient hard workers are often driven out of unions or forced to "work slower", etc.
      - DFHippie 6y ago
        >That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people The answer to this is not airy theorizing or anecdotes but statistical evidence. There are many people who do this. See for example figure 9 here: https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
  - mcguire 6y ago
    Do you get vacations? Have a (nominally) 40-hour work week?
    - syshum 6y ago
      lol, that is not a valid response to criticize of unions. Sorry but no
claudeganon 6y ago
Neonazis were used to intimidate immigrant workers at Amazon facilities in Germany a few years ago, so it's not exactly "history" for "old comrades. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-used-neo-nazi-guards-keep-immigrant-workforce-under-control-germany-8495843.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-used-..."
mmcgaha 6y ago
I get that 100 years sounds like a long time, but the coal miners unionization stories are my grandfather's. Things change fast and it is good to keep the past in mind when evaluating the decisions we make today.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

_wldu 6y ago

Right, I think the point is that while things have improved since then, workers are still exploited. The only way to change that is for people to band together. Large, diverse, unified groups can bring about change. The coal miners were mostly Irish and German immigrants and African Americans. They all joined together and brought about changes that workers still benefit from today. People in 2020 can do the same.

thomascgalvin 6y ago

I think the main points are: 1. Their own struggles aren't new: companies have been trying to fuck workers over since time immemorial, and 2. There is a well-known solution to these problems: unions. Are you working 16 hours a day, barely able to afford rent + food + utilities, and slipping further into debt every day? It doesn't have to be that way, and we have a really good idea, based on historical facts, about how to fix it.

syshum 6y ago
you do know that Appalachia is still the poorest area in the US, and the unions did not fix the economic problems. yes it provided the employees that were still employed with greater protections, but it is not the utopia you seem to believe it is
- andybak 6y ago
  Nobody claimed a utopia. Extracting natural resources is always going to be a tough job that is ripe for exploitation. Did unions improve the lives of members? They certainly did where I come from. American labour history is more complex (union corruption and take over by organised crime seemed to run deeper)
  - syshum 6y ago
    That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people Where unions are more focused on their own political power than helping workers Or even if in general the union helped the "average worker" the collectivist nature of unions means not everyone will be better off. For example Seniority, and "personal connections" are often more of a driving factor in Unions than merit or work performance. In fact highly efficient hard workers are often driven out of unions or forced to "work slower", etc.
    - DFHippie 6y ago
      >That depends, sure you can point to examples where the Union did improve peoples lives But then i can also point to examples where they did not, where they ended up driving business out, bankrupting people The answer to this is not airy theorizing or anecdotes but statistical evidence. There are many people who do this. See for example figure 9 here: https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
- mcguire 6y ago
  Do you get vacations? Have a (nominally) 40-hour work week?
  - syshum 6y ago
    lol, that is not a valid response to criticize of unions. Sorry but no

claudeganon 6y ago

Neonazis were used to intimidate immigrant workers at Amazon facilities in Germany a few years ago, so it's not exactly "history" for "old comrades. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-used-neo-nazi-guards-keep-immigrant-workforce-under-control-germany-8495843.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-used-..."

mmcgaha 6y ago

I get that 100 years sounds like a long time, but the coal miners unionization stories are my grandfather's. Things change fast and it is good to keep the past in mind when evaluating the decisions we make today.