5 ms·

Can I just point out that I think the "horrible working conditions" things is a little played up. You want to know terrible working conditions dancing with a s

by hpoe 6y ago

Can I just point out that I think the "horrible working conditions" things is a little played up. You want to know terrible working conditions dancing with a sign for 5 hours a day in the sun when it's 90+. I did that for 3 years and was happy to do the job, mind you this was only 10 years ago so it isn't forever. I made 7.50 an hour. I would've killed to get a job at amazon back then. People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position.

badRNG 6y ago
"You are unreasonable for calling out a bad thing, since I can conceive of an even worse thing."
- hpoe 6y ago
  My point is that if we are interested in helping people in geniuly terrible working conditions there are plenty of people who have it far worse than those at Amazon and those should be the focus of these efforts and outrage rather than people making $16 an hour in moderately decent conditions.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    How about we let those Amazon workers help themselves and form a union?
  - badRNG 6y ago
    People can care about multiple issues at the same time. This discussion isn't explicitly about the working conditions of Amazon, it is about the highly unethical methods they use to crush dissent and workers organizing, namely the leaked documents that detail actions including the spying on workers suspected of organizing even outside of work by the Pinkertons. This isn't the 19th century, this deeply upsetting and unconscionable behavior should not be tolerated in the 21st century.
- cle 6y ago
  It’s not unrelated, when talking about pay and working conditions it’s all relative to the rest of the economy and sits in that context, pointing out other parts of that context is perfectly relevant (though it obviously can’t paint a complete picture). We should of course be mindful of whataboutism when discussing these things but I think it’s a good idea to consider the economic and social context when talking about these issues, they don’t exist in a vacuum.
  - badRNG 6y ago
    The discussion is about Amazon hiring Pinkerton operatives to spy on employees suspected of organizing even when they are off work. This was an interview with the journalist who broke the story as a continuation. [1] Deflecting criticism with "some workers have even more upsetting conditions than these" doesn't help either party, moreover it actually shuts down an important discussion relevant to both. We shouldn't tolerate any business crushing dissent the way Amazon does; that's what is being discussed here. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dp3yn/amazon-leaked-reports-expose-spying-warehouse-workers-labor-union-environmental-groups-social-movements https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dp3yn/amazon-leaked-reports...
    - cle 6y ago
      I'm not talking about deflecting the conversation or shutting down discussions, nor am I even taking a side here (personally I don't have enough information about this topic to have an opinion). I just don't agree with pretending like the relationship between employers and employees exists in an isolated cultural/economic bubble. There are many ways it can inform what actions we should take--at the very least it lets us know if this is a systemic problem or an isolated one, which alone could dramatically change what course of action to take.
natpalmer1776 6y ago
It is incredibly played up. 10 years ago, warehouse conditions were the same or worse as they are now except you would be lucky to get $16/hr without a forklift operator certification or some other credential that made it more than just 'unskilled labor'
- mrguyorama 6y ago
  And ~160 years ago we had literal slavery, doesn't mean that people's working conditions currently are good, just because others were bad or even are still currently bad
arichard123 6y ago
> People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position. That's one view, but it's only informed by "the way things are". Another view is based on the way things should be, that no one should have to work for less than the wage it takes to live a reasonable life. https://livingwage.mit.edu/ https://livingwage.mit.edu/ offers values for this. I don't see why someone should work full time and still end up poor.
- hpoe 6y ago
  And I disagree that everyone should get paid a loving wage. Let's take 2 identical twins Juan and Jamal (because if you've seen Juan you've seen Jamal). In school Jamal works hard, studies, and puts his efforts first. Juan on the other hand decides football is the way to go and along with that partying, drinking and at one point gets a gal pregnant. They graduate Jamal gets several scholarships and goes to school while working part time to try and avoid debt. Juan only qualifies for community college but spends several years "finding himself" aka partying, drinking and generally not doing much. 4 years later Jamal graduates from school and gets a successful software engineering gig making a decent salary with which he is able to afford a decent house for him, his wife and his 2 children. Meanwhile Juan has just finished his latest stint in jail for another DUI and it is a wake up call to him. He decides to get his life in order so he cuts out the drugs and the bad friends and tries to find a job. Unfortunately he's unqualified for anything decent because it turns out shotgunning a beer is a useless skill. For many years Juan has made poor decisions, he has been a drain on society and it's resources, but now wants to change. That is good however to claim that he should get the same privileges and standing as his brother who spent years working hard giving back and making better long term choices is asinine. EDIT: There have been a lot of great and informative comments. Several people have been calling this out as a strawman. I'd like to point out this isn't a strawman this is actually remarkably close to what happenned in my own family, it isn't a fantastic out of this world scenario, it's one I lived. Dismissing this as a strawman, is to dismiss hte point without engaging with it.
  - iso1631 6y ago
    Nobody is saying that Jamal should not be paid more, they're just saying the floor should be enough to live.
jmnicolas 6y ago
I worked in a factory building car bumpers. The work was so alienating that one day I "woke up" in the factory with literally no recollection of the last 2 hours. From all I knew I could have been taken by ETs but since my bumper quota was good I guess I just zoned out and became a bot. And I still call Amazon "horrible working conditions". The fact that it is better than being poor isn't saying much.
- eropple 6y ago
  $16 per hour, at 2000 hours a year, is $32,000. The poverty line in the United States is around $26,000. "Slightly above poverty wages" is still pretty dang poor. (And to forestall the inevitable adjustment of one's pince-nez to well-actually: that it'd be median or even above-median wages somewhere else does not mean that it is not poor in America, nor that the two situations can be reasonably compared.)
  - harlanji 6y ago
    I’ve been living in my car in SF for about 915 days, on less than $18k/yr take home. I’m so poor that I can barely get hired to a minimum wage job (“but you have a car,” “but you have an iPhone”). Everything I have is left over from a time when I made $200k/yr as a software engineer, and thankfully I’ve been given a lot of benefit of the doubt given my upstanding ways. (I was slandered, so people I meet see a good guy but when I interview they’re told of a violent bigot during the reference check, false). I’m working on a book, or books, on the subject. It seems surprising to people that something happens called poverty with less than a certain level of income, that makes things get extremely hard and require great care to recover from. I was on track to get off the street and nearly did last year but faced a setback, and the pandemic threw a big wrench in my system this year (which is adapting, harder mode). My working budget has been $55/day or $375/wk or $18k/yr.
    - TurkishPoptart 6y ago
      You've been slandered by whom?
    - 6y ago
dogecoinbase 6y ago
https://www.wweek.com/news/business/2020/12/02/workers-risking-the-covid-19-outbreak-at-amazons-troutdale-warehouse-signed-a-strict-confidentiality-agreement/ https://www.wweek.com/news/business/2020/12/02/workers-riski... > On June 10, the Oregon Health Authority announced a COVID-19 outbreak at Amazon's Troutdale warehouse that has now lasted 25 weeks and infected 97 people with the virus, making it one of the largest workplace outbreaks in Oregon.
macintux 6y ago
> You want to know terrible working conditions dancing with a sign for 5 hours a day in the sun when it's 90+. While dancing with a sign in the sun does lead to heat exhaustion risks, it's unlikely to lead to permanent disability, which seems like the inevitable outcome of working at an Amazon warehouse for too long.

by hpoe 6y ago

badRNG 6y ago

"You are unreasonable for calling out a bad thing, since I can conceive of an even worse thing."

hpoe 6y ago
My point is that if we are interested in helping people in geniuly terrible working conditions there are plenty of people who have it far worse than those at Amazon and those should be the focus of these efforts and outrage rather than people making $16 an hour in moderately decent conditions.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  How about we let those Amazon workers help themselves and form a union?
- badRNG 6y ago
  People can care about multiple issues at the same time. This discussion isn't explicitly about the working conditions of Amazon, it is about the highly unethical methods they use to crush dissent and workers organizing, namely the leaked documents that detail actions including the spying on workers suspected of organizing even outside of work by the Pinkertons. This isn't the 19th century, this deeply upsetting and unconscionable behavior should not be tolerated in the 21st century.
cle 6y ago
It’s not unrelated, when talking about pay and working conditions it’s all relative to the rest of the economy and sits in that context, pointing out other parts of that context is perfectly relevant (though it obviously can’t paint a complete picture). We should of course be mindful of whataboutism when discussing these things but I think it’s a good idea to consider the economic and social context when talking about these issues, they don’t exist in a vacuum.
- badRNG 6y ago
  The discussion is about Amazon hiring Pinkerton operatives to spy on employees suspected of organizing even when they are off work. This was an interview with the journalist who broke the story as a continuation. [1] Deflecting criticism with "some workers have even more upsetting conditions than these" doesn't help either party, moreover it actually shuts down an important discussion relevant to both. We shouldn't tolerate any business crushing dissent the way Amazon does; that's what is being discussed here. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dp3yn/amazon-leaked-reports-expose-spying-warehouse-workers-labor-union-environmental-groups-social-movements https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dp3yn/amazon-leaked-reports...
  - cle 6y ago
    I'm not talking about deflecting the conversation or shutting down discussions, nor am I even taking a side here (personally I don't have enough information about this topic to have an opinion). I just don't agree with pretending like the relationship between employers and employees exists in an isolated cultural/economic bubble. There are many ways it can inform what actions we should take--at the very least it lets us know if this is a systemic problem or an isolated one, which alone could dramatically change what course of action to take.

natpalmer1776 6y ago

It is incredibly played up. 10 years ago, warehouse conditions were the same or worse as they are now except you would be lucky to get $16/hr without a forklift operator certification or some other credential that made it more than just 'unskilled labor'

mrguyorama 6y ago
And ~160 years ago we had literal slavery, doesn't mean that people's working conditions currently are good, just because others were bad or even are still currently bad

arichard123 6y ago

> People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position. That's one view, but it's only informed by "the way things are". Another view is based on the way things should be, that no one should have to work for less than the wage it takes to live a reasonable life. https://livingwage.mit.edu/ https://livingwage.mit.edu/ offers values for this. I don't see why someone should work full time and still end up poor.

hpoe 6y ago
And I disagree that everyone should get paid a loving wage. Let's take 2 identical twins Juan and Jamal (because if you've seen Juan you've seen Jamal). In school Jamal works hard, studies, and puts his efforts first. Juan on the other hand decides football is the way to go and along with that partying, drinking and at one point gets a gal pregnant. They graduate Jamal gets several scholarships and goes to school while working part time to try and avoid debt. Juan only qualifies for community college but spends several years "finding himself" aka partying, drinking and generally not doing much. 4 years later Jamal graduates from school and gets a successful software engineering gig making a decent salary with which he is able to afford a decent house for him, his wife and his 2 children. Meanwhile Juan has just finished his latest stint in jail for another DUI and it is a wake up call to him. He decides to get his life in order so he cuts out the drugs and the bad friends and tries to find a job. Unfortunately he's unqualified for anything decent because it turns out shotgunning a beer is a useless skill. For many years Juan has made poor decisions, he has been a drain on society and it's resources, but now wants to change. That is good however to claim that he should get the same privileges and standing as his brother who spent years working hard giving back and making better long term choices is asinine. EDIT: There have been a lot of great and informative comments. Several people have been calling this out as a strawman. I'd like to point out this isn't a strawman this is actually remarkably close to what happenned in my own family, it isn't a fantastic out of this world scenario, it's one I lived. Dismissing this as a strawman, is to dismiss hte point without engaging with it.
- iso1631 6y ago
  Nobody is saying that Jamal should not be paid more, they're just saying the floor should be enough to live.

jmnicolas 6y ago

I worked in a factory building car bumpers. The work was so alienating that one day I "woke up" in the factory with literally no recollection of the last 2 hours. From all I knew I could have been taken by ETs but since my bumper quota was good I guess I just zoned out and became a bot. And I still call Amazon "horrible working conditions". The fact that it is better than being poor isn't saying much.

eropple 6y ago
$16 per hour, at 2000 hours a year, is $32,000. The poverty line in the United States is around $26,000. "Slightly above poverty wages" is still pretty dang poor. (And to forestall the inevitable adjustment of one's pince-nez to well-actually: that it'd be median or even above-median wages somewhere else does not mean that it is not poor in America, nor that the two situations can be reasonably compared.)
- harlanji 6y ago
  I’ve been living in my car in SF for about 915 days, on less than $18k/yr take home. I’m so poor that I can barely get hired to a minimum wage job (“but you have a car,” “but you have an iPhone”). Everything I have is left over from a time when I made $200k/yr as a software engineer, and thankfully I’ve been given a lot of benefit of the doubt given my upstanding ways. (I was slandered, so people I meet see a good guy but when I interview they’re told of a violent bigot during the reference check, false). I’m working on a book, or books, on the subject. It seems surprising to people that something happens called poverty with less than a certain level of income, that makes things get extremely hard and require great care to recover from. I was on track to get off the street and nearly did last year but faced a setback, and the pandemic threw a big wrench in my system this year (which is adapting, harder mode). My working budget has been $55/day or $375/wk or $18k/yr.
  - TurkishPoptart 6y ago
    You've been slandered by whom?
  - 6y ago

dogecoinbase 6y ago

https://www.wweek.com/news/business/2020/12/02/workers-risking-the-covid-19-outbreak-at-amazons-troutdale-warehouse-signed-a-strict-confidentiality-agreement/ https://www.wweek.com/news/business/2020/12/02/workers-riski... > On June 10, the Oregon Health Authority announced a COVID-19 outbreak at Amazon's Troutdale warehouse that has now lasted 25 weeks and infected 97 people with the virus, making it one of the largest workplace outbreaks in Oregon.

macintux 6y ago

> You want to know terrible working conditions dancing with a sign for 5 hours a day in the sun when it's 90+. While dancing with a sign in the sun does lead to heat exhaustion risks, it's unlikely to lead to permanent disability, which seems like the inevitable outcome of working at an Amazon warehouse for too long.