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we are causing numerous small problems that are adding up Those numerous 15 minutes waiting in a deli line and waiting in a bakery line and waiting in a butche

we are causing numerous small problems that are adding up Those numerous 15 minutes waiting in a deli line and waiting in a bakery line and waiting in a butchers line add up too. We value efficiency because we need it and you’ll learn the value of time efficiency once you have kids that need to be fed every day and a 9-5 job with a commute. How did we solve this before? We deprived half the population of their right to work for a wage and had them run around doing all this waiting and cooking. That’s over now and the rest of our lives need to be more efficient.

crazygringo 6y ago
This x1000. There's nothing romantic or natural or virtuous about wasting time waiting in line and visiting multiple shops and having less items available. It's just boredom and tedium. It's a good thing when we're able to free up time from mundane tasks so we do things that are rewarding to our soul -- whether it's spending more time with your family, playing sports with friends, going to the theater, reading a good book, whatever it is.
- whiddershins 6y ago
  I feel the same way, but it’s worth noting not everyone does.
- mikem170 6y ago
  There's also nothing virtuous or efficient about the typical modern middle-class American lifestyle, double the house size of fifty years ago, three cars, college as status symbol, etc. I think most people would say that all this new efficiency is crushing peoples souls. Isn't everyone talking about the loneliness of the modern age, the scary amount of people who are depressed at any time, hiding with drugs, the loss of clubs and other social institutions? I tend to think that we've been selling our soul for efficiency. We'd have so much free time if we we didn't need to consume so much.
  - polishdude20 6y ago
    That first paragraph is funny. More and more young people are renting more than ever. Three cars to a household is not common. Although, yes I do agree that wanting to consume and have more items is causing us to suffer.
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    Absolutely none of that has to do with how efficient your grocery shopping is. What you choose to spend your extra time on is your choice. But that's the point -- it should be your choice to be able to spend it on hanging out with friends, rather than standing in long lines waiting to buy food. If you want to spend in on working extra hours to buy a third car, I mean that's your choice too I guess. But it's not like wasting your life waiting in line is any better.
    - mikem170 6y ago
      I'll try to clarify/refine where I'm coming from: Systemically we as a culture care more about our quick cheese than we do about the hundred of years of trash. Ideally the price of the fancy cheese and everything else should include the cost of disposal, and right now it doesn't, and that's not right. Would you agree? I do believe that our culture is too focused on economic efficiency, and ignoring numerous consequences of that. That might be a separate discussion?
      - souprock 6y ago
        Quality packaging reduces spoilage, and thus reduces waste. A stack of slices wrapped up by a deli will spoil long before individually sealed slices. Longer shelf life enables efficient shipping and shopping, which reduces trips taken. This counts towards fuel use, road wear, and vehicle wear. Counting both the waste and the product that gets used, the total cost is a rough approximation of environmental impact. The less you spend, the lower your impact.
  - souprock 6y ago
    I got three cars so I could be more efficient. Use the right size for the job. For minor little trips around town, I use the Fiat 500L. It has 5 seats in 2 rows. For high speed, or a bit more stuff, I use the Subaru Ascent. It has 8 seats in 3 rows. For traveling with the whole family, I use the Ford E-350 extended-length passenger van. It has 15 seats in 5 rows. Before I bought the smaller cars, I had to drive the van everywhere. It's a beast, 3 tons empty or 5 tons full. I think I get about 12 MPG, which is efficient per-person when I'm bringing a dozen kids. As a commuter car, the van is horrible.
- z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
  you trade environmental stability for petty convenience? pathetically short sighted
jazzyk 6y ago
So efficient = working 12 hrs/day and being able to afford everything ready-made/shipped for/to you (frozen and flavorless, on occasion past expiration date). Even if you have an exciting/fulfilling job (a relative rarity) it gets old very quickly after a few years because most people need some variety in their lives. Every time I vacation in southern Europe, I love going to markets, picking fruit/vegetables, having prosciutto cut for me. I think the time you claim it takes exagerrated - usually there are 1-2 people in line. People dream to retire and tend to their garden (very "inefficient"), cooking their meals from scratch everyday, etc. Lots of cooking shows and shows like "Escape to the country" (BBC) seem to prove my point.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  What are you even talking about? Most people work 8 hrs/day, not 12. If you go to your local supermarket, you'll see tons of people shopping for fresh produce and meat, not frozen or flavorless or expired (???). You're inventing a total straw man. Yes some people work 12 hour days and eat frozen food but it's a small minority. If spending lots of time at markets is what you enjoy, that do that. That's what farmer's markets in the US are for. But lots of people prefer to spend their free time doing other things they enjoy. Farmer's markets can get old very quickly too. Sometimes people want to spend just 5 minutes grabbing some ingredients and checking out to make a quick dinner, not 30 minutes visiting different stalls, waiting for the three people ahead of you at each one, and then haggling over prices.
  - mikem170 6y ago
    So how about we add the cost of proper disposal to that cheese? It is inefficient and unfair to pass the cost of someone's cheese to everyone else now and for three hundred years. Then if you have the money you don't have to wait in line. Does that sound fair?
    - crazygringo 6y ago
      Whether it's prosciutto or cheese, of course. It's a common view among economists that externalities, including environmental ones, ought to be factored into costs. It's an unfair subsidy, exactly as you describe, when they're not.
whiddershins 6y ago
Which was the deprivation? Then or now? Running around and being efficient after spending your days working away in an office might not feel like an upgrade to someone who had the other option.
- mikem170 6y ago
  Is this a catch-22 though? Would it be a less busy world if we the price of cheese packaging included the externalities of disposal? Some people would choose the cheaper of more time consuming alternative, and what is wrong with that? Do we have to have everything possible asap, damn the consequences?
mikem170 6y ago
But what is the goal of all these new efficiencies? Many of the efficiencies the modern age brought us have been in service of "more" - more house, more car, more entertainment, more clothes, more disposable technology, more status symbols, etc. We totally live in a consumer society, our biggest companies revolve around advertising. The economy would fall apart if people stopped buying stuff they don't need. Instead of all that we could have chosen the best modernity had to offer and only worked twenty hours a week. That would have been way more efficient than what we have now. But no, everyone went for the prosciutto. The advertisers won.
loco5niner 6y ago
> We deprived half the population of their right to work for a wage and had them run around doing all this waiting and cooking. Here's the funny thing though. Your perspective changes when you have kids. As a personal anecdote, we just had our first baby 3 months ago. My wife had spent the last 3 years getting her masters degree and getting her teaching certificate. She pushed hard. It was important to her. She got the email that her certification came through the day after the birth. She didn't care. All she want's to do right now is take care of her baby. That will likely change, and she'll probably work part time sometime in the future. But saying we've deprived half the population of their right to work is missing another perspective. The joy and privilege of raising a family. Yes, the efficiencies are wonderful, and for my wife (and for me), that means more time with our family. Who is being deprived now? I would hate to see my daughter deprived of her time with Mom so Mom could sit in an office all day. And I feel like our society is suffering because kids aren't being raised by their parents anymore.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  > She pushed hard. It was important to her. She got the email that her certification came through the day after the birth. She didn't care. All she want's to do right now is take care of her baby. I had a similar discussion with my brother the other day. After multiple miscarriages, they're finally pregnant, 17 weeks in and healthy. He worked from the time he was a teenager joining military reserves, degree in criminology and kinesiology, and finally a provincial constable around 6+ years in to get to where he is. An hour after their latest ultrasound, his only words were: work sucks.
  - loco5niner 6y ago
    Congrats to your brother! We can share in both their grief and their joy, as we've suffered through multiple miscarriages too.
- jonfw 6y ago
  It's great that she's made that choice, and it's also great that it's her choice to make. That wasn't the case before.

crazygringo 6y ago

This x1000. There's nothing romantic or natural or virtuous about wasting time waiting in line and visiting multiple shops and having less items available. It's just boredom and tedium. It's a good thing when we're able to free up time from mundane tasks so we do things that are rewarding to our soul -- whether it's spending more time with your family, playing sports with friends, going to the theater, reading a good book, whatever it is.

whiddershins 6y ago
I feel the same way, but it’s worth noting not everyone does.
mikem170 6y ago
There's also nothing virtuous or efficient about the typical modern middle-class American lifestyle, double the house size of fifty years ago, three cars, college as status symbol, etc. I think most people would say that all this new efficiency is crushing peoples souls. Isn't everyone talking about the loneliness of the modern age, the scary amount of people who are depressed at any time, hiding with drugs, the loss of clubs and other social institutions? I tend to think that we've been selling our soul for efficiency. We'd have so much free time if we we didn't need to consume so much.
- polishdude20 6y ago
  That first paragraph is funny. More and more young people are renting more than ever. Three cars to a household is not common. Although, yes I do agree that wanting to consume and have more items is causing us to suffer.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  Absolutely none of that has to do with how efficient your grocery shopping is. What you choose to spend your extra time on is your choice. But that's the point -- it should be your choice to be able to spend it on hanging out with friends, rather than standing in long lines waiting to buy food. If you want to spend in on working extra hours to buy a third car, I mean that's your choice too I guess. But it's not like wasting your life waiting in line is any better.
  - mikem170 6y ago
    I'll try to clarify/refine where I'm coming from: Systemically we as a culture care more about our quick cheese than we do about the hundred of years of trash. Ideally the price of the fancy cheese and everything else should include the cost of disposal, and right now it doesn't, and that's not right. Would you agree? I do believe that our culture is too focused on economic efficiency, and ignoring numerous consequences of that. That might be a separate discussion?
    - souprock 6y ago
      Quality packaging reduces spoilage, and thus reduces waste. A stack of slices wrapped up by a deli will spoil long before individually sealed slices. Longer shelf life enables efficient shipping and shopping, which reduces trips taken. This counts towards fuel use, road wear, and vehicle wear. Counting both the waste and the product that gets used, the total cost is a rough approximation of environmental impact. The less you spend, the lower your impact.
- souprock 6y ago
  I got three cars so I could be more efficient. Use the right size for the job. For minor little trips around town, I use the Fiat 500L. It has 5 seats in 2 rows. For high speed, or a bit more stuff, I use the Subaru Ascent. It has 8 seats in 3 rows. For traveling with the whole family, I use the Ford E-350 extended-length passenger van. It has 15 seats in 5 rows. Before I bought the smaller cars, I had to drive the van everywhere. It's a beast, 3 tons empty or 5 tons full. I think I get about 12 MPG, which is efficient per-person when I'm bringing a dozen kids. As a commuter car, the van is horrible.
z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
you trade environmental stability for petty convenience? pathetically short sighted

jazzyk 6y ago

So efficient = working 12 hrs/day and being able to afford everything ready-made/shipped for/to you (frozen and flavorless, on occasion past expiration date). Even if you have an exciting/fulfilling job (a relative rarity) it gets old very quickly after a few years because most people need some variety in their lives. Every time I vacation in southern Europe, I love going to markets, picking fruit/vegetables, having prosciutto cut for me. I think the time you claim it takes exagerrated - usually there are 1-2 people in line. People dream to retire and tend to their garden (very "inefficient"), cooking their meals from scratch everyday, etc. Lots of cooking shows and shows like "Escape to the country" (BBC) seem to prove my point.

crazygringo 6y ago
What are you even talking about? Most people work 8 hrs/day, not 12. If you go to your local supermarket, you'll see tons of people shopping for fresh produce and meat, not frozen or flavorless or expired (???). You're inventing a total straw man. Yes some people work 12 hour days and eat frozen food but it's a small minority. If spending lots of time at markets is what you enjoy, that do that. That's what farmer's markets in the US are for. But lots of people prefer to spend their free time doing other things they enjoy. Farmer's markets can get old very quickly too. Sometimes people want to spend just 5 minutes grabbing some ingredients and checking out to make a quick dinner, not 30 minutes visiting different stalls, waiting for the three people ahead of you at each one, and then haggling over prices.
- mikem170 6y ago
  So how about we add the cost of proper disposal to that cheese? It is inefficient and unfair to pass the cost of someone's cheese to everyone else now and for three hundred years. Then if you have the money you don't have to wait in line. Does that sound fair?
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    Whether it's prosciutto or cheese, of course. It's a common view among economists that externalities, including environmental ones, ought to be factored into costs. It's an unfair subsidy, exactly as you describe, when they're not.

whiddershins 6y ago

Which was the deprivation? Then or now? Running around and being efficient after spending your days working away in an office might not feel like an upgrade to someone who had the other option.

mikem170 6y ago
Is this a catch-22 though? Would it be a less busy world if we the price of cheese packaging included the externalities of disposal? Some people would choose the cheaper of more time consuming alternative, and what is wrong with that? Do we have to have everything possible asap, damn the consequences?

mikem170 6y ago

But what is the goal of all these new efficiencies? Many of the efficiencies the modern age brought us have been in service of "more" - more house, more car, more entertainment, more clothes, more disposable technology, more status symbols, etc. We totally live in a consumer society, our biggest companies revolve around advertising. The economy would fall apart if people stopped buying stuff they don't need. Instead of all that we could have chosen the best modernity had to offer and only worked twenty hours a week. That would have been way more efficient than what we have now. But no, everyone went for the prosciutto. The advertisers won.

loco5niner 6y ago

> We deprived half the population of their right to work for a wage and had them run around doing all this waiting and cooking. Here's the funny thing though. Your perspective changes when you have kids. As a personal anecdote, we just had our first baby 3 months ago. My wife had spent the last 3 years getting her masters degree and getting her teaching certificate. She pushed hard. It was important to her. She got the email that her certification came through the day after the birth. She didn't care. All she want's to do right now is take care of her baby. That will likely change, and she'll probably work part time sometime in the future. But saying we've deprived half the population of their right to work is missing another perspective. The joy and privilege of raising a family. Yes, the efficiencies are wonderful, and for my wife (and for me), that means more time with our family. Who is being deprived now? I would hate to see my daughter deprived of her time with Mom so Mom could sit in an office all day. And I feel like our society is suffering because kids aren't being raised by their parents anymore.

52-6F-62 6y ago
> She pushed hard. It was important to her. She got the email that her certification came through the day after the birth. She didn't care. All she want's to do right now is take care of her baby. I had a similar discussion with my brother the other day. After multiple miscarriages, they're finally pregnant, 17 weeks in and healthy. He worked from the time he was a teenager joining military reserves, degree in criminology and kinesiology, and finally a provincial constable around 6+ years in to get to where he is. An hour after their latest ultrasound, his only words were: work sucks.
- loco5niner 6y ago
  Congrats to your brother! We can share in both their grief and their joy, as we've suffered through multiple miscarriages too.
jonfw 6y ago
It's great that she's made that choice, and it's also great that it's her choice to make. That wasn't the case before.