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Does it need to be a big deal to wait a few minutes at the deli counter? In our rush to maximize everything for efficiency we are causing numerous small proble

Does it need to be a big deal to wait a few minutes at the deli counter? In our rush to maximize everything for efficiency we are causing numerous small problems that are adding up, a tragedy of the commons and loss of our humanity. Our culture seems to value efficiency above too much else.

minikites 6y ago
>Our culture seems to value efficiency above too much else. Capitalism tells us that if we're not making money, we're worthless as humans. It's not about hard work or efficiency, just look at the lack of respect for work that doesn't make money (e.g. stay-at-home parents).
- mikem170 6y ago
  > Capitalism tells us that if we're not making money, we're worthless as humans. I agree that pure capitalism thinks that way, and some cultures are closer to that than others.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  No it doesn't it says that the value of living in a capitalist society should be reciprocated with value, i.e. individuals providing value to society, as societal value is nothing more than the aggregation of individual contributions. I'm not saying this is entirely good/correct, but I am saying you misstate the message. > just look at the lack of respect for work that doesn't make money This conflates individual value with societal/communal. But why should anyone give a dam about stuff that doesn't benefit them? To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't give a damn, I saying why couldn't they i.e. why should they be forced if they choose not to. There's also a nuance to value: Capitalism determines value on the basis on what money people are willing to spend. Firstly, if people go out of there way to ensure money is not involved with something, don't be surprised if it's value is miscalculated by a capitalist system: this is like not winning a competition you never entered. That said, the economic impact of packaging is undervalued because no one is attaching an accurate debt/penalty to it, which is arguably the real problem here. Secondly, there is a notion that things of value create "market demand", so if little money is offered for something, then market doesn't want it, and people supplying it are refusing to offer what society actually wants. I think this makes sense: people have children even though parental benefits might be low suggesting they aren't really doing it for society, though I've discussed this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24423077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24423077 TLDR: Capitalism only deals with societal value; so it only determines your value (of actions, say) on the basis of value to society. People are free to value things outside that system; If you think "people don't care about X" because "people don't provide money for X" then it is you declaring the value of something to be its dollar amount.
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    > To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't give a damn, I saying why couldn't they i.e. why should they be forced if they choose not to. In a lot of these cases it's probably true that there's no direct, measurable, benefit. One has to look past the direct benefit to the indirect benefit to understand why we would be forced to do something that has no direct benefit to ourselves. For example, a property tax increase to pay for improved schools doesn't have any apparent benefit if you're a single adult with no children in school. In fact the whole education system has no measurable benefit to you if you're an adult. It seems like a waste of money. So we can say it has no first-order benefit. But suppose that the increased funding would help pay for things like civics education. There's a second-order or third-order benefit to paying those taxes. By ensuring other peoples' children are educated in how our Democratic institutions work, they are better able to navigate those institutions, and they will make more informed decisions about their elected officials because of this. If you care about maintaining and improving those institutions then that tax increase is very worthwhile even if you have no kids. But it has no measurable economic benefit. I think our Capitalist system has gone insane because it no longer acknowledges those benefits that have no tangible monetary value. It also encourages us to think in terms of money above all else. We've gone so far into the weeds with Scientific Management that if we can't measure the direct monetary benefit it doesn't exist. And that's not true. Being unable to measure something simply means we can't quantify the benefit. It doesn't mean it has no benefit. And that's at the heart of a lot of economic arguments against tax increases. They're arguing that being unable to quantify the benefit implies the benefit doesn't exist. And that's patently untrue in a lot of cases.
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      > But suppose that the increased funding would help pay for things like civics education That why can't I just opt for that, the civics funding? I'm not saying that only things with measurable economic benefit should be funded, I'm saying only things with measurable economic benefit OR that people want to pay for should be funded. One or the other, or both. But if neither condition is met, you shouldn't get funded. and if your opinion is that there is a non-tangible benefit, you need to convince people of that. Our Capitalist system does acknowledge benefits that have no tangible monetary value - by allowing people to freely spend money on what they care about.
CountSessine 6y ago
we are causing numerous small problems that are adding up Those numerous 15 minutes waiting in a deli line and waiting in a bakery line and waiting in a butchers line add up too. We value efficiency because we need it and you’ll learn the value of time efficiency once you have kids that need to be fed every day and a 9-5 job with a commute. How did we solve this before? We deprived half the population of their right to work for a wage and had them run around doing all this waiting and cooking. That’s over now and the rest of our lives need to be more efficient.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  This x1000. There's nothing romantic or natural or virtuous about wasting time waiting in line and visiting multiple shops and having less items available. It's just boredom and tedium. It's a good thing when we're able to free up time from mundane tasks so we do things that are rewarding to our soul -- whether it's spending more time with your family, playing sports with friends, going to the theater, reading a good book, whatever it is.
  - whiddershins 6y ago
    I feel the same way, but it’s worth noting not everyone does.
  - mikem170 6y ago
    There's also nothing virtuous or efficient about the typical modern middle-class American lifestyle, double the house size of fifty years ago, three cars, college as status symbol, etc. I think most people would say that all this new efficiency is crushing peoples souls. Isn't everyone talking about the loneliness of the modern age, the scary amount of people who are depressed at any time, hiding with drugs, the loss of clubs and other social institutions? I tend to think that we've been selling our soul for efficiency. We'd have so much free time if we we didn't need to consume so much.
    - polishdude20 6y ago
      That first paragraph is funny. More and more young people are renting more than ever. Three cars to a household is not common. Although, yes I do agree that wanting to consume and have more items is causing us to suffer.
stronglikedan 6y ago
It's not always about just waiting in a line. If I have a small store selling pre-packaged meats, I may not have enough money to staff a deli counter.
powersnail 6y ago
It's not always easy to find a deli that stocks actual Prosciutto; probably not enough people buy them. On the one hand, I agree that efficiency is valued too high. But on the other hand, sometimes, efficiency is what makes things accessible at all.
mariodiana 6y ago
Yes. Deli counter people are notorious for interrupting you while you have your nose buried in your phone. And then you have to actually talk to them. It's a big deal.
8note 6y ago
Cached cutting would make some sense? You don't need to be waiting in line but the meats also don't need to be all precut and stored before they get to the store. Cut some off in the morning and put it in simpler packaging, and if that runs out, Cut a bit more
- crazygringo 6y ago
  Plenty of deli counters do that with their popular items like ham, swiss, salami. But prosciutto is more of a niche item that won't go bad quickly, which is why it's usually packaged at a factory in packaging that will last months.

minikites 6y ago

>Our culture seems to value efficiency above too much else. Capitalism tells us that if we're not making money, we're worthless as humans. It's not about hard work or efficiency, just look at the lack of respect for work that doesn't make money (e.g. stay-at-home parents).

mikem170 6y ago
> Capitalism tells us that if we're not making money, we're worthless as humans. I agree that pure capitalism thinks that way, and some cultures are closer to that than others.
Chris2048 6y ago
No it doesn't it says that the value of living in a capitalist society should be reciprocated with value, i.e. individuals providing value to society, as societal value is nothing more than the aggregation of individual contributions. I'm not saying this is entirely good/correct, but I am saying you misstate the message. > just look at the lack of respect for work that doesn't make money This conflates individual value with societal/communal. But why should anyone give a dam about stuff that doesn't benefit them? To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't give a damn, I saying why couldn't they i.e. why should they be forced if they choose not to. There's also a nuance to value: Capitalism determines value on the basis on what money people are willing to spend. Firstly, if people go out of there way to ensure money is not involved with something, don't be surprised if it's value is miscalculated by a capitalist system: this is like not winning a competition you never entered. That said, the economic impact of packaging is undervalued because no one is attaching an accurate debt/penalty to it, which is arguably the real problem here. Secondly, there is a notion that things of value create "market demand", so if little money is offered for something, then market doesn't want it, and people supplying it are refusing to offer what society actually wants. I think this makes sense: people have children even though parental benefits might be low suggesting they aren't really doing it for society, though I've discussed this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24423077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24423077 TLDR: Capitalism only deals with societal value; so it only determines your value (of actions, say) on the basis of value to society. People are free to value things outside that system; If you think "people don't care about X" because "people don't provide money for X" then it is you declaring the value of something to be its dollar amount.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  > To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't give a damn, I saying why couldn't they i.e. why should they be forced if they choose not to. In a lot of these cases it's probably true that there's no direct, measurable, benefit. One has to look past the direct benefit to the indirect benefit to understand why we would be forced to do something that has no direct benefit to ourselves. For example, a property tax increase to pay for improved schools doesn't have any apparent benefit if you're a single adult with no children in school. In fact the whole education system has no measurable benefit to you if you're an adult. It seems like a waste of money. So we can say it has no first-order benefit. But suppose that the increased funding would help pay for things like civics education. There's a second-order or third-order benefit to paying those taxes. By ensuring other peoples' children are educated in how our Democratic institutions work, they are better able to navigate those institutions, and they will make more informed decisions about their elected officials because of this. If you care about maintaining and improving those institutions then that tax increase is very worthwhile even if you have no kids. But it has no measurable economic benefit. I think our Capitalist system has gone insane because it no longer acknowledges those benefits that have no tangible monetary value. It also encourages us to think in terms of money above all else. We've gone so far into the weeds with Scientific Management that if we can't measure the direct monetary benefit it doesn't exist. And that's not true. Being unable to measure something simply means we can't quantify the benefit. It doesn't mean it has no benefit. And that's at the heart of a lot of economic arguments against tax increases. They're arguing that being unable to quantify the benefit implies the benefit doesn't exist. And that's patently untrue in a lot of cases.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    > But suppose that the increased funding would help pay for things like civics education That why can't I just opt for that, the civics funding? I'm not saying that only things with measurable economic benefit should be funded, I'm saying only things with measurable economic benefit OR that people want to pay for should be funded. One or the other, or both. But if neither condition is met, you shouldn't get funded. and if your opinion is that there is a non-tangible benefit, you need to convince people of that. Our Capitalist system does acknowledge benefits that have no tangible monetary value - by allowing people to freely spend money on what they care about.

CountSessine 6y ago

we are causing numerous small problems that are adding up Those numerous 15 minutes waiting in a deli line and waiting in a bakery line and waiting in a butchers line add up too. We value efficiency because we need it and you’ll learn the value of time efficiency once you have kids that need to be fed every day and a 9-5 job with a commute. How did we solve this before? We deprived half the population of their right to work for a wage and had them run around doing all this waiting and cooking. That’s over now and the rest of our lives need to be more efficient.

crazygringo 6y ago
This x1000. There's nothing romantic or natural or virtuous about wasting time waiting in line and visiting multiple shops and having less items available. It's just boredom and tedium. It's a good thing when we're able to free up time from mundane tasks so we do things that are rewarding to our soul -- whether it's spending more time with your family, playing sports with friends, going to the theater, reading a good book, whatever it is.
- whiddershins 6y ago
  I feel the same way, but it’s worth noting not everyone does.
- mikem170 6y ago
  There's also nothing virtuous or efficient about the typical modern middle-class American lifestyle, double the house size of fifty years ago, three cars, college as status symbol, etc. I think most people would say that all this new efficiency is crushing peoples souls. Isn't everyone talking about the loneliness of the modern age, the scary amount of people who are depressed at any time, hiding with drugs, the loss of clubs and other social institutions? I tend to think that we've been selling our soul for efficiency. We'd have so much free time if we we didn't need to consume so much.
  - polishdude20 6y ago
    That first paragraph is funny. More and more young people are renting more than ever. Three cars to a household is not common. Although, yes I do agree that wanting to consume and have more items is causing us to suffer.

stronglikedan 6y ago

It's not always about just waiting in a line. If I have a small store selling pre-packaged meats, I may not have enough money to staff a deli counter.

powersnail 6y ago

It's not always easy to find a deli that stocks actual Prosciutto; probably not enough people buy them. On the one hand, I agree that efficiency is valued too high. But on the other hand, sometimes, efficiency is what makes things accessible at all.

mariodiana 6y ago

Yes. Deli counter people are notorious for interrupting you while you have your nose buried in your phone. And then you have to actually talk to them. It's a big deal.

8note 6y ago

Cached cutting would make some sense? You don't need to be waiting in line but the meats also don't need to be all precut and stored before they get to the store. Cut some off in the morning and put it in simpler packaging, and if that runs out, Cut a bit more

crazygringo 6y ago
Plenty of deli counters do that with their popular items like ham, swiss, salami. But prosciutto is more of a niche item that won't go bad quickly, which is why it's usually packaged at a factory in packaging that will last months.