6 ms·

Indeed, this is why Apple is able to take this leap and the PC platform hasn't so far. They don't have to wait for as many partners to get along for the ride.

ghaff 6y ago
And partners also means customers. A ton of those Windows systems (and I should have said systems--rather than laptops--as I don't know how things split out on laptops specifically) are going to non-technical users in big companies who absolutely do not want any changes that alter a menu or move an icon or introduce some incompatibility they have to deal with. They absolutely do not care whether there's some significant price/performance/watt boost if it otherwise introduces even mildly disruptive change.
- danaris 6y ago
  Frankly, I think that the willingness on the part of some, like Microsoft, to cater to that degree of hidebound thinking is actively harmful to us as a society, especially in terms of technology. The more we enable people who are unwilling to even try to learn that this particular option has moved from the Edit menu to the Format menu, or has removed the default toolbar icon (but you can add one), or has simply moved an inch to the left, the more we send the message that it's normal and expected that people shouldn't have to ever adapt and change and learn new things.
  - chongli 6y ago
    On the other hand, we have a lot software in the industry that changes regularly without any perceivable improvement. Google is known for relentlessly pruning whole products that people were happily using but they're also pretty aggressive about removing features from existing products. One big example of that is the removal of community captioning for YouTube videos. Call me hidebound but I am not happy at all with this, even though I don't use it very much. Captions are critical for making videos accessible to the deaf and hard of hearing communities. The removal of this feature is an ugly snub to a vulnerable group. Now they will be wholly reliant on the video creators to do the captioning themselves or otherwise be stuck with the lousy automatic captioning.
    - danaris 6y ago
      Sure; that's also a problem. There is a balance to be struck, and between us, I think we've more or less bracketed it.
macintux 6y ago
I think more accurately: Apple won't wait for partners to get along for the ride. Backwards compatibility has long been a Microsoft obsession (out of necessity for the enterprise market) and an Apple allergy.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I'm not sure there's another company of Apple's size and influence which has consistently been so ready to dump legacy at least a beat before its customers were prepared for it. Headphone jack, 5 1/4" floppy, I'm sure a bunch of other things I'm forgetting. "I'm going to dump Apple over this!" "See ya. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!."
  - macintux 6y ago
    Pretty much every I/O port Apple has ever used they dropped before the rest of the industry. PS/2, parallel, serial, USB-A... Of course optical drives; that was a big step. Apple is ruthless at pruning old tech.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      Does anyone miss floppies? CDs? What about SCSI or ADB? I can't think of one thing Apple dropped that caused such an uproar at the time that people regret now. Sure, I bitch about my laptop not having an SD reader, but Apple hasn't shown me what's next for its replacement other than thinner (meh). SCSI->USB/Firewire->USB2->USB3->USB-C this all made sense.
    - twic 6y ago
      When did Apple use PS/2 ports? It went D-sub -> ADB -> USB, as far as i remember.
      - macintux 6y ago
        You're right; I was accustomed over the years to point to PS/2 as an example of the PC world being slow to give up on an outdated port, and carelessly conflated that with Apple using it.
gorbypark 6y ago
It's also because Microsoft half-assed their Windows-on-arm attempt. They made something akin to Rosetta 2 (x86 to arm translation) but only supported x86, not amd64. Apparently they are working on 64bit support, but releasing something half done doesn't inspire confidence. Even the 32bit support was reportedly not very good/fast, compared to Rosetta 2, anyways. If Microsoft steps up their game then I can see Windows on arm starting to take off, even if Qualcomms chips trail Apple's M1 in performance.
- temac 6y ago
  MS x86 emulation will likely be far slower if they don't have access to the memory model trick.
read_if_gay_ 6y ago
Apple took this leap because their CPUs are sufficiently fast. No one else has managed that.

ghaff 6y ago

And partners also means customers. A ton of those Windows systems (and I should have said systems--rather than laptops--as I don't know how things split out on laptops specifically) are going to non-technical users in big companies who absolutely do not want any changes that alter a menu or move an icon or introduce some incompatibility they have to deal with. They absolutely do not care whether there's some significant price/performance/watt boost if it otherwise introduces even mildly disruptive change.

danaris 6y ago
Frankly, I think that the willingness on the part of some, like Microsoft, to cater to that degree of hidebound thinking is actively harmful to us as a society, especially in terms of technology. The more we enable people who are unwilling to even try to learn that this particular option has moved from the Edit menu to the Format menu, or has removed the default toolbar icon (but you can add one), or has simply moved an inch to the left, the more we send the message that it's normal and expected that people shouldn't have to ever adapt and change and learn new things.
- chongli 6y ago
  On the other hand, we have a lot software in the industry that changes regularly without any perceivable improvement. Google is known for relentlessly pruning whole products that people were happily using but they're also pretty aggressive about removing features from existing products. One big example of that is the removal of community captioning for YouTube videos. Call me hidebound but I am not happy at all with this, even though I don't use it very much. Captions are critical for making videos accessible to the deaf and hard of hearing communities. The removal of this feature is an ugly snub to a vulnerable group. Now they will be wholly reliant on the video creators to do the captioning themselves or otherwise be stuck with the lousy automatic captioning.
  - danaris 6y ago
    Sure; that's also a problem. There is a balance to be struck, and between us, I think we've more or less bracketed it.

macintux 6y ago

I think more accurately: Apple won't wait for partners to get along for the ride. Backwards compatibility has long been a Microsoft obsession (out of necessity for the enterprise market) and an Apple allergy.

ghaff 6y ago
I'm not sure there's another company of Apple's size and influence which has consistently been so ready to dump legacy at least a beat before its customers were prepared for it. Headphone jack, 5 1/4" floppy, I'm sure a bunch of other things I'm forgetting. "I'm going to dump Apple over this!" "See ya. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!."
- macintux 6y ago
  Pretty much every I/O port Apple has ever used they dropped before the rest of the industry. PS/2, parallel, serial, USB-A... Of course optical drives; that was a big step. Apple is ruthless at pruning old tech.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    Does anyone miss floppies? CDs? What about SCSI or ADB? I can't think of one thing Apple dropped that caused such an uproar at the time that people regret now. Sure, I bitch about my laptop not having an SD reader, but Apple hasn't shown me what's next for its replacement other than thinner (meh). SCSI->USB/Firewire->USB2->USB3->USB-C this all made sense.
  - twic 6y ago
    When did Apple use PS/2 ports? It went D-sub -> ADB -> USB, as far as i remember.
    - macintux 6y ago
      You're right; I was accustomed over the years to point to PS/2 as an example of the PC world being slow to give up on an outdated port, and carelessly conflated that with Apple using it.

gorbypark 6y ago

It's also because Microsoft half-assed their Windows-on-arm attempt. They made something akin to Rosetta 2 (x86 to arm translation) but only supported x86, not amd64. Apparently they are working on 64bit support, but releasing something half done doesn't inspire confidence. Even the 32bit support was reportedly not very good/fast, compared to Rosetta 2, anyways. If Microsoft steps up their game then I can see Windows on arm starting to take off, even if Qualcomms chips trail Apple's M1 in performance.

temac 6y ago
MS x86 emulation will likely be far slower if they don't have access to the memory model trick.

read_if_gay_ 6y ago

Apple took this leap because their CPUs are sufficiently fast. No one else has managed that.