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True; although who knows what would hold up in court if anyone was to file a lawsuit based on some of these "digital contracts" we agree to every time we click

True; although who knows what would hold up in court if anyone was to file a lawsuit based on some of these "digital contracts" we agree to every time we click "I agree".

mgamache 6y ago
I have a feeling that a judge would want to find them invalid, but what happens if he/she rules that they are non-binding? The chaos it would cause for US B2C businesses would be large. This alone may sway the courts to make them binding.
- bjarneh 6y ago
  > This alone may sway the courts to make them binding. I'm afraid you are correct, but hasn't the whole system collapsed if: - Is this good for our businesses? is is part of your consideration when you are trying to find out if something is illegal or not?
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  Customers should have the legal footing to negotiate every line in every contract with someone holding the status to negotiate on behalf of the company. If I can't negotiate my cell phone contact I'm placed in an impossible scenario where I either agree under duress or endure the impossible life of someone that refuses to sign contracts. Essentially, there are 4-6 contracts I'm capable of negotiating in my life out of tens of thousands I've agreed to under duress. Those 4-6 are: apartment lease (keep the Wi-Fi take off $50), groundskeeping (days, times, work to be done, breachs), trash (when, where). These negotiations are only possible because these companies have sole proprietors who will get on the phone to keep a customer. Let's move every company closer to this model by requiring every contract to be negotiable or, if online, optout no guarantees, no warranty, no liability, no tracking except for carefully and explicitly outlined exceptions.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  > The chaos it would cause for US B2C businesses would be large. Literally who cares? Let them deal with it. It doesn't matter how much money they lose. They should have considered the consequences of abusing people's trust and violating their privacy under questionable consent. Corporations are vastly more powerful compared to individuals. Courts obviously need to favor the latter in the vast majority of cases. To do otherwise is injustice.
  - mgamache 6y ago
    It was not a value judgement, just a prediction. Some judges do look at the impact of a ruling. I personally don't think they should be legally binding (as I suspect most HN readers do). "doesn't matter how much money they lose" -- of course it does, these companies employ people and generate lots of government revenue (even if they skirt corporate taxes).
    - wizzwizz4 6y ago
      And if they fold due to privacy violations, another company will usually take their place.
    - matheusmoreira 6y ago
      > these companies employ people and generate lots of government revenue (even if they skirt corporate taxes). There are political and economic concerns, not judicial. The fact the company is important does nothing to remedy the fact that it exfiltrated private information to foreign intelligence agencies.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  The often are non-binding. Read up on "contracts of adhesion". Business doesn't fall apart because at the end of the day it mostly doesn't matter if you obey TOS. This has nothing to do with privacy though, since there's (in most cases) no law against what the companies are doing with the day.
gzer0 6y ago
The TOS of any European company cannot supersede the law of the European Union. Example; how one individual singlehandedy forced the hands of Spotify to reverse an API decision they made blocking the export of your playlists. Note how Spotify thinks their TOS supersedes the GDPR. It does not. Otherwise, we would have corporations directly creating laws. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371
- mattmanser 6y ago
  The trouble with the GDPR seems to be that it relies on government enforcement. For example the UK's enforcement arm, the ICO, recently found that the adtech industry was in violation of the GDPR, then did nothing: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/the-ico-must-fix-the-adtech-industry/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/the-ico-must-fix-the-ad... As far as I know, I can't personally sue these companies for this, and if the ICO does nothing then what's the law is meaningless. The follow up from the Open Rights Group is here: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/parliament-must-hold-the-ico-to-account/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/parliament-must-hold-th... If you care about privacy in the UK, please donate to ORG, I started a direct debit years ago and have always been impressed with their work and focus: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/join/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/join/
  - karlp 6y ago
    > As far as I know, I can't personally sue these companies for this, and if the ICO does nothing then what's the law is meaningless. Couldn't you sue ICO then?
    - plett 6y ago
      Yes. That's what the Open Rights Group are doing, and they want donations to help with it. https://action.openrightsgroup.org/help-us-protect-your-data-illegal-ads https://action.openrightsgroup.org/help-us-protect-your-data...

True; although who knows what would hold up in court if anyone was to file a lawsuit based on some of these "digital contracts" we agree to every time we click "I agree".

mgamache 6y ago

I have a feeling that a judge would want to find them invalid, but what happens if he/she rules that they are non-binding? The chaos it would cause for US B2C businesses would be large. This alone may sway the courts to make them binding.

bjarneh 6y ago
> This alone may sway the courts to make them binding. I'm afraid you are correct, but hasn't the whole system collapsed if: - Is this good for our businesses? is is part of your consideration when you are trying to find out if something is illegal or not?
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
Customers should have the legal footing to negotiate every line in every contract with someone holding the status to negotiate on behalf of the company. If I can't negotiate my cell phone contact I'm placed in an impossible scenario where I either agree under duress or endure the impossible life of someone that refuses to sign contracts. Essentially, there are 4-6 contracts I'm capable of negotiating in my life out of tens of thousands I've agreed to under duress. Those 4-6 are: apartment lease (keep the Wi-Fi take off $50), groundskeeping (days, times, work to be done, breachs), trash (when, where). These negotiations are only possible because these companies have sole proprietors who will get on the phone to keep a customer. Let's move every company closer to this model by requiring every contract to be negotiable or, if online, optout no guarantees, no warranty, no liability, no tracking except for carefully and explicitly outlined exceptions.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
> The chaos it would cause for US B2C businesses would be large. Literally who cares? Let them deal with it. It doesn't matter how much money they lose. They should have considered the consequences of abusing people's trust and violating their privacy under questionable consent. Corporations are vastly more powerful compared to individuals. Courts obviously need to favor the latter in the vast majority of cases. To do otherwise is injustice.
- mgamache 6y ago
  It was not a value judgement, just a prediction. Some judges do look at the impact of a ruling. I personally don't think they should be legally binding (as I suspect most HN readers do). "doesn't matter how much money they lose" -- of course it does, these companies employ people and generate lots of government revenue (even if they skirt corporate taxes).
  - wizzwizz4 6y ago
    And if they fold due to privacy violations, another company will usually take their place.
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    > these companies employ people and generate lots of government revenue (even if they skirt corporate taxes). There are political and economic concerns, not judicial. The fact the company is important does nothing to remedy the fact that it exfiltrated private information to foreign intelligence agencies.
alisonkisk 6y ago
The often are non-binding. Read up on "contracts of adhesion". Business doesn't fall apart because at the end of the day it mostly doesn't matter if you obey TOS. This has nothing to do with privacy though, since there's (in most cases) no law against what the companies are doing with the day.

gzer0 6y ago

The TOS of any European company cannot supersede the law of the European Union. Example; how one individual singlehandedy forced the hands of Spotify to reverse an API decision they made blocking the export of your playlists. Note how Spotify thinks their TOS supersedes the GDPR. It does not. Otherwise, we would have corporations directly creating laws. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371

mattmanser 6y ago
The trouble with the GDPR seems to be that it relies on government enforcement. For example the UK's enforcement arm, the ICO, recently found that the adtech industry was in violation of the GDPR, then did nothing: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/the-ico-must-fix-the-adtech-industry/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/the-ico-must-fix-the-ad... As far as I know, I can't personally sue these companies for this, and if the ICO does nothing then what's the law is meaningless. The follow up from the Open Rights Group is here: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/parliament-must-hold-the-ico-to-account/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/parliament-must-hold-th... If you care about privacy in the UK, please donate to ORG, I started a direct debit years ago and have always been impressed with their work and focus: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/join/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/join/
- karlp 6y ago
  > As far as I know, I can't personally sue these companies for this, and if the ICO does nothing then what's the law is meaningless. Couldn't you sue ICO then?
  - plett 6y ago
    Yes. That's what the Open Rights Group are doing, and they want donations to help with it. https://action.openrightsgroup.org/help-us-protect-your-data-illegal-ads https://action.openrightsgroup.org/help-us-protect-your-data...