7 ms·

The unanswered question is what will you do with the mushrooms after they've munched on petroleum or plastic? My guess is that you're not going to want them on

by rmason 6y ago

The unanswered question is what will you do with the mushrooms after they've munched on petroleum or plastic? My guess is that you're not going to want them on your pizza cause they might just be toxic. Will we only be replacing one kind of waste with another? For plastics the answer is out there, biodegradable plastic made from corn. It has to overcome two problems: 1. It's slightly more expensive 2. If we want it to degrade rapidly we need to make an investment in plants to do it. Otherwise you're looking at 100 years versus 300+ years for regular plastic.

_iyig 6y ago
Last I checked (circa 2017), bioplastics like PLA had poor heat resistance. This made them unsuitable for certain applications like bushings or gasket seals. IIRC "heat resistant" varieties of PLA are rated up to 120 Celsius, which is good for many applications but not all e.g. automotive seals, washers, and bearings. Footnote: I was going to compare the properties of heat-resistant PLA to those of PTFE aka Teflon, since the latter is commonly used in heat-resistant applications, but after some Googling I've learned PTFE is not petroleum-based.
baybal2 6y ago
> The unanswered question is what will you do with the mushrooms after they've munched on petroleum or plastic? My guess is that you're not going to want them on your pizza cause they might just be toxic. Believe me or not, I ate that yeast grown on petroleum paraffin once. At the time of extreme food scarcity in Russia, we had people eating animal feed produced from yeast grown on paraffin. It's called paprin in Russian. So, knowing that most of petroleum hydrocarbons are toxic if ingested, the result may be more amendable than the source product.
- eru 6y ago
  As an even simpler example, hydrocarbons can be burned to water and C2O. You can feed those to plants just like anything else. (But going that route would waste a lot of energy.)
  - firethief 6y ago
    That would never make sense to do. The atmosphere is heavily enriched with CO2 already, so plants don't need help obtaining it. If you want to grow plants in an area where water is so scarce you have to import it, but you have oil, don't burn your money: sell the oil and buy water.
    - eru 6y ago
      Uh, yes? You'd be a fool to burn oil just as a source as CO2 and water. I didn't say that's what you should do or that it makes sense. Merely as an illustration that you can start with some toxic substances and feed them to plants, and be very happy eating those plants. Of course, that doesn't apply to everything. Heavy metals stay bad for you.
- hated 6y ago
  Heh. The product disrupted hormonal and water balance, causing edema to form throughout the body of the animals, reported by the Russian business consultancy, which brought studies from Bashkiria State University. “Meat obtained from animals fed with Paprin contained an accumulation of abnormal amino acids that were incorporated into the membranes of nerve cells, thus disrupting the process of conducting a normal nerve impulse,” said Raisa Bashirova, principal investigator at Bashkiria State University, who added that it was even harmful to humans to paintings with Paprin: “Factory staff and local citizens were presenting diseases such as canker sores and bronchial asthma. “ In the 1990s, almost the entire production of bioprotein in Russia was stopped. Gaprin, although it had proved to be safe and efficient, could not compete with rather cheap imported protein feedstuffs, which began to land on the local market in large quantities. Now, several decades later, bioprotein production in Russia seems to be getting a second chance. From: http://benisonmedia.com/bioprotein-may-bring-self-sufficiency-in-russian-animal-feed-industry/ http://benisonmedia.com/bioprotein-may-bring-self-sufficienc...
ttsda 6y ago
If those mushrooms truly degraded the petroleum or plastic into something harmless, they can be simply turned into compost.
- mcv 6y ago
  Exactly. There's a big difference between merely absorbing plastic and petroleum, and metabolising it. The former might be nice if you want to collect microplastics or clean up oil spills or something, but the latter would actually get rid of the plastic and the oil and turn it into something more ecologically useful.
oblio 6y ago
I think for plastics the right answer is standardization. I know that's not people want to hear, but I don't think there is any way around it. 1. Ban all single use plastics that can be replaced somewhat economically with biodegradable materials (with a small price increase, maybe 2-5-10%). 2. Standardize plastic container compositions, shapes and sizes in a huge ISO catalog. EVERY product a company makes/uses has to be from this catalog. Companies can add another category one by going through the standardization process. Marketing can be done by applying biodegradable materials to the exterior. Basically have a few material compositions: - high strength/heavy - medium strength/medium weight - reduced strength/light Have a standardized set of sizes: - 100ml (and US equivalent) - 250ml - 330ml - 500ml ... Plus a standardized set of shapes for each size. At the end of the day you'd get: 3 x number of sizes (probably 40-50 sizes?) x number of shapes (probably 10-15 shapes per size?) = 1200 - 2250 categories. And I'm being generous here, I think we should probably keep this total number under 500, ideally under 100, but I don't think such a low number is feasible. Then charge a deposit for each plastic container and upon container return give this deposit back. Same thing for glass, actually. This would make plastic containers reusable, even across brands, and would probably reduce our plastic waste by orders of magnitude. Heck, the same thing could probably be done for plastic bags. However, this plan would also reduce plastic consumption (and production, so $$$) by orders of magnitude, so I don't expect it to ever pass a solid lobbying plan.
- peterlk 6y ago
  I have some friends who have recently started a business based on this model. They don't have a site up yet, but are doing some small scale tests in Colorado. I'm happy to direct anyone who is interested toward them.
- 495636483 6y ago
  Also standardize the composition and coloring. That's the major problem with recycling. I say transparent and one opaque variant for photoprotection.
  - oblio 6y ago
    I have included composition in my description ;-) And coloring, well, a part of it would be composition and the rest should IMO temporary marketing coloring on top of the base composition (i.e. paint the bottle with something biodegradable). Color should not be part of the standard as it would make the "support matrix" unsustainable and companies should not be allowed to "pass the buck" back to us consumers.
smarx007 6y ago
I am not sure if you explored the links in the article but https://aem.asm.org/content/77/17/6076.full#aff-1 https://aem.asm.org/content/77/17/6076.full#aff-1 states that plastic is not "munched" (absorbed/attached) but biodegraded (broken down/dissolved) by the fungi. Also, the kind of fungi used is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pestalotiopsis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pestalotiopsis and that's not a kind you'd ever have in your pizza, I guess.
quietbritishjim 6y ago
I'm very much not an expert on this, but I believe there's an additional problem with plastic made from corn: 3. It requires huge land areas to grow enough corn to make enough plastic for the whole world's population, which requires clearing huge expanses of existing forests and other natural areas.
rv-de 6y ago
Mushrooms and mycelia can be used as a resource to fabricate textiles, packaging, bricks etc. Also, if the mushrooms grow only on what they can break down it's totally safe to eat them. It has to be a controlled process. Not just trying to grow mushrooms on a heap of trash you'd otherwise just burn. Having said that - even mushrooms won't liberate us from using resources more responsibly.
whoomp12342 6y ago
when we move to renewables, the production of oil will go down, and plastics as a byproduct will decrease in supply increasing its price, so I'm predicting point 1 to happen in time.
lee 6y ago
"The mushrooms’ enzymes re-manufactured the hydrocarbons into carbohydrates, fungal sugars," I wonder if the process would be similar for plastics. If so, it could then be used as feed. I don't see any information, but the fungus grown from plastic might not be toxic.

by rmason 6y ago

_iyig 6y ago

Last I checked (circa 2017), bioplastics like PLA had poor heat resistance. This made them unsuitable for certain applications like bushings or gasket seals. IIRC "heat resistant" varieties of PLA are rated up to 120 Celsius, which is good for many applications but not all e.g. automotive seals, washers, and bearings. Footnote: I was going to compare the properties of heat-resistant PLA to those of PTFE aka Teflon, since the latter is commonly used in heat-resistant applications, but after some Googling I've learned PTFE is not petroleum-based.

baybal2 6y ago

> The unanswered question is what will you do with the mushrooms after they've munched on petroleum or plastic? My guess is that you're not going to want them on your pizza cause they might just be toxic. Believe me or not, I ate that yeast grown on petroleum paraffin once. At the time of extreme food scarcity in Russia, we had people eating animal feed produced from yeast grown on paraffin. It's called paprin in Russian. So, knowing that most of petroleum hydrocarbons are toxic if ingested, the result may be more amendable than the source product.

eru 6y ago
As an even simpler example, hydrocarbons can be burned to water and C2O. You can feed those to plants just like anything else. (But going that route would waste a lot of energy.)
- firethief 6y ago
  That would never make sense to do. The atmosphere is heavily enriched with CO2 already, so plants don't need help obtaining it. If you want to grow plants in an area where water is so scarce you have to import it, but you have oil, don't burn your money: sell the oil and buy water.
  - eru 6y ago
    Uh, yes? You'd be a fool to burn oil just as a source as CO2 and water. I didn't say that's what you should do or that it makes sense. Merely as an illustration that you can start with some toxic substances and feed them to plants, and be very happy eating those plants. Of course, that doesn't apply to everything. Heavy metals stay bad for you.
hated 6y ago
Heh. The product disrupted hormonal and water balance, causing edema to form throughout the body of the animals, reported by the Russian business consultancy, which brought studies from Bashkiria State University. “Meat obtained from animals fed with Paprin contained an accumulation of abnormal amino acids that were incorporated into the membranes of nerve cells, thus disrupting the process of conducting a normal nerve impulse,” said Raisa Bashirova, principal investigator at Bashkiria State University, who added that it was even harmful to humans to paintings with Paprin: “Factory staff and local citizens were presenting diseases such as canker sores and bronchial asthma. “ In the 1990s, almost the entire production of bioprotein in Russia was stopped. Gaprin, although it had proved to be safe and efficient, could not compete with rather cheap imported protein feedstuffs, which began to land on the local market in large quantities. Now, several decades later, bioprotein production in Russia seems to be getting a second chance. From: http://benisonmedia.com/bioprotein-may-bring-self-sufficiency-in-russian-animal-feed-industry/ http://benisonmedia.com/bioprotein-may-bring-self-sufficienc...

ttsda 6y ago

If those mushrooms truly degraded the petroleum or plastic into something harmless, they can be simply turned into compost.

mcv 6y ago
Exactly. There's a big difference between merely absorbing plastic and petroleum, and metabolising it. The former might be nice if you want to collect microplastics or clean up oil spills or something, but the latter would actually get rid of the plastic and the oil and turn it into something more ecologically useful.

oblio 6y ago

I think for plastics the right answer is standardization. I know that's not people want to hear, but I don't think there is any way around it. 1. Ban all single use plastics that can be replaced somewhat economically with biodegradable materials (with a small price increase, maybe 2-5-10%). 2. Standardize plastic container compositions, shapes and sizes in a huge ISO catalog. EVERY product a company makes/uses has to be from this catalog. Companies can add another category one by going through the standardization process. Marketing can be done by applying biodegradable materials to the exterior. Basically have a few material compositions: - high strength/heavy - medium strength/medium weight - reduced strength/light Have a standardized set of sizes: - 100ml (and US equivalent) - 250ml - 330ml - 500ml ... Plus a standardized set of shapes for each size. At the end of the day you'd get: 3 x number of sizes (probably 40-50 sizes?) x number of shapes (probably 10-15 shapes per size?) = 1200 - 2250 categories. And I'm being generous here, I think we should probably keep this total number under 500, ideally under 100, but I don't think such a low number is feasible. Then charge a deposit for each plastic container and upon container return give this deposit back. Same thing for glass, actually. This would make plastic containers reusable, even across brands, and would probably reduce our plastic waste by orders of magnitude. Heck, the same thing could probably be done for plastic bags. However, this plan would also reduce plastic consumption (and production, so $$$) by orders of magnitude, so I don't expect it to ever pass a solid lobbying plan.

peterlk 6y ago
I have some friends who have recently started a business based on this model. They don't have a site up yet, but are doing some small scale tests in Colorado. I'm happy to direct anyone who is interested toward them.
495636483 6y ago
Also standardize the composition and coloring. That's the major problem with recycling. I say transparent and one opaque variant for photoprotection.
- oblio 6y ago
  I have included composition in my description ;-) And coloring, well, a part of it would be composition and the rest should IMO temporary marketing coloring on top of the base composition (i.e. paint the bottle with something biodegradable). Color should not be part of the standard as it would make the "support matrix" unsustainable and companies should not be allowed to "pass the buck" back to us consumers.

smarx007 6y ago

I am not sure if you explored the links in the article but https://aem.asm.org/content/77/17/6076.full#aff-1 https://aem.asm.org/content/77/17/6076.full#aff-1 states that plastic is not "munched" (absorbed/attached) but biodegraded (broken down/dissolved) by the fungi. Also, the kind of fungi used is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pestalotiopsis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pestalotiopsis and that's not a kind you'd ever have in your pizza, I guess.

quietbritishjim 6y ago

I'm very much not an expert on this, but I believe there's an additional problem with plastic made from corn: 3. It requires huge land areas to grow enough corn to make enough plastic for the whole world's population, which requires clearing huge expanses of existing forests and other natural areas.

rv-de 6y ago

Mushrooms and mycelia can be used as a resource to fabricate textiles, packaging, bricks etc. Also, if the mushrooms grow only on what they can break down it's totally safe to eat them. It has to be a controlled process. Not just trying to grow mushrooms on a heap of trash you'd otherwise just burn. Having said that - even mushrooms won't liberate us from using resources more responsibly.

whoomp12342 6y ago

when we move to renewables, the production of oil will go down, and plastics as a byproduct will decrease in supply increasing its price, so I'm predicting point 1 to happen in time.

lee 6y ago

"The mushrooms’ enzymes re-manufactured the hydrocarbons into carbohydrates, fungal sugars," I wonder if the process would be similar for plastics. If so, it could then be used as feed. I don't see any information, but the fungus grown from plastic might not be toxic.