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I lived in SV and moved to Europe to do a startup. If things were to go south, I wouldn't even consider regular employment over here. Even when told, most peop

I lived in SV and moved to Europe to do a startup. If things were to go south, I wouldn't even consider regular employment over here. Even when told, most people still refuse to believe the compensation numbers achievable by even fairly average engineers.

ivanche 6y ago
It seems unbelievable really. It's literally 5x-20x of what a solid developer can earn in Europe. I mean, the best of the best (and I know maybe 1000 developers so not that small of a sample) I've heard is around $150K, a few over $100K and everyone else below $100K. Of course, there's other stuff - 30 (working) days of paid vacation, solid and cheap education, solid medical coverage (I consider $50 medical bill damn high) etc.
- powerapple 6y ago
  It is less about the skills. With a good platform, your skills will transfer to higher value (I mean money really) than average platforms. It is not like the person with highest score in class end up with the biggest house. There is only one Facebook, one Google, one Amazon, one Microsoft and one Apple, and the US has all of them.
- marcell 6y ago
  As a SV engineer I’m having the opposite experience hearing those numbers. It sounds way below market rates.
- randomchars 6y ago
  > 30 (working) days of paid vacation > solid and cheap education > solid medical coverage Unfortunately none of these are uniform across Europe. I only have 20 days of vacation, medical coverage is horrible, with 2-3 month waiting lists for even an MRI, and education is absolutely horrid. I wouldn't even call them free, nor cheap: income taxes come out to about ~35%, and VAT is the highest in the world. And to add on to that, achieving compensation above ~80k usd is basically impossible. With ~3 years of experience I barely get half of that at a Google L4 level equivalent.
  - riknox 6y ago
    That's the unfortunate reality of working in Europe I think, especially in a lower cost of living country. I've just moved from Germany to the UK, and my salary has increased in gross terms (and an associated significant increase in net), but I lose many of the German provisions/safety nets that the high taxes pay for over there.
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    Genuine question, I have always wondered about this regarding EU based FAANG roles (I am making the leap that you are EU based): How statistically common/likely is it for EU based engineers to move to the US on a L-1 visa, specifically at google?
    - 0xfaded 6y ago
      I didn't work at google, but of the people I know, if H1B wasn't an option they would usually push through an O1.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    In California, if you're making over a million dollars you're looking at 50.3% marginal income tax i believe, which is a lot more than the 35% cited by the parent as "expensive" and you're probably getting a lot less
    - randomchars 6y ago
      I can say without hesitation, that that's a problem I'd like to have. Besides housing, healthcare, and maybe barbers, everything is either cheaper, or costs the same as it is in most of Europe.
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      So you'd still keep 500K, right? I could live with such salary,even in SV
      - 0xfaded 6y ago
- zelos 6y ago
  The median daily rate for sofware contractors in the UK is apparently around $500, which is probably over $100k/year. I guess that stops counting as Europe fairly soon, though.
  - randomchars 6y ago
    > sofware contractors Contractors always earn more than employees though don't they?
    - zelos 6y ago
      Yes, but they're still software developers: most teams I've worked on have had plenty of contractors. It seems like the more experienced developers either stay permie and move into architecture/management or become contractors. There are plenty of "contractors in name only", too.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  > Of course, there's other stuff - 30 (working) days of paid vacation, solid and cheap education, solid medical coverage (I consider $50 medical bill damn high) etc. I worked at FAANGs in Silicon Valley for many years. I always got at least 20 vacation days, 10-12 holidays (like Christmas or July 4th), excellent insurance plans and could pay off my 40-45K education loan in a breeze. Total cost of private education is ~25K per child. If you have a Software job at a FAANG in SV, it will be better than almost any other arrangement in Europe (exception: Zurich) even after taking into account vacation days, insurance premiums, California taxes, private schools cost and probability of gun violence.
  - drevil-v2 6y ago
    I am curious what's special about Zurich that makes it an exception?
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
I suppose for a lot of non US engineers the main issue is not so much believing the compensation packages but actually navigating the legal constraints to be allowed to work in the US (or more specifically in SV, Seatle, NY, where those packages are available).
- henvic 6y ago
  I'd say in the US, as this is an immigration issue. Things are so much easier for those who have the luck of either being US citizens or somehow being allowed to legally work there...
durnygbur 6y ago
> I wouldn't even consider regular employment over here. You have a chance to complete for free a long queue of take home assignments which might end up with an employment for 2k EUR net monthly.
- Rainymood 6y ago
  As an EU engineer this ... pains me ... because how true it is ... please tell me about the promised land
- 0xfaded 6y ago
  HAHAHA, this sounds laughable similar to all the "startup competitions" where the grand prize is pitching to some noname investor.
kuschku 6y ago
Personally, I think the SV numbers are just too high. Your attitude is a good example of the issues that come with that. We’re engineers, not royalty. There’s nothing any one of us could do that would justify these wages, if it wasn’t for US immigration policies causing an artificial supply/demand issue.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Well clearly there's something you can do to justify it because fb justifies it. This is business after all. Your value is a combination of what you bring to the company and how hard you are to replace. FB makes $$$, the $$$ didn't just appear out of thin air, it happened because of the people who work there. Giving engineers a share of all that money seems much more reasonable than giving zuckerberg a second private jet.
- jhowell 6y ago
  > We’re engineers, not royalty. There’s nothing any one of us could do that would justify these wages, if it wasn’t for US immigration policies causing an artificial supply/demand issue. Executives, CEOs and shareholders are all highly compensated for their risk in both time and money and are not "royalty." I would argue that being royal implies birth as an unjustifiably paid skill.
  - kuschku 6y ago
    > Executives, CEOs and shareholders are all highly compensated for their risk in both time and money That too is wrong. Paying wages based on supply/demand instead of based on the value an employee actually provides leads to exactly this kind of heavily distorted labor markets.
    - quickthrower2 6y ago
      Well how do you define value? Is it workers should get enough for a modest life, a fair pay for a fair days work, the rest goes to shareholders?
    - 6y ago
redis_mlc 6y ago
Among developed economies, Canada is similar to Europe, and Japan is the worst for software engineers. The Balkans pay programmers like US 7-11 cashiers. :)

ivanche 6y ago

It seems unbelievable really. It's literally 5x-20x of what a solid developer can earn in Europe. I mean, the best of the best (and I know maybe 1000 developers so not that small of a sample) I've heard is around $150K, a few over $100K and everyone else below $100K. Of course, there's other stuff - 30 (working) days of paid vacation, solid and cheap education, solid medical coverage (I consider $50 medical bill damn high) etc.

powerapple 6y ago
It is less about the skills. With a good platform, your skills will transfer to higher value (I mean money really) than average platforms. It is not like the person with highest score in class end up with the biggest house. There is only one Facebook, one Google, one Amazon, one Microsoft and one Apple, and the US has all of them.
marcell 6y ago
As a SV engineer I’m having the opposite experience hearing those numbers. It sounds way below market rates.
randomchars 6y ago
> 30 (working) days of paid vacation > solid and cheap education > solid medical coverage Unfortunately none of these are uniform across Europe. I only have 20 days of vacation, medical coverage is horrible, with 2-3 month waiting lists for even an MRI, and education is absolutely horrid. I wouldn't even call them free, nor cheap: income taxes come out to about ~35%, and VAT is the highest in the world. And to add on to that, achieving compensation above ~80k usd is basically impossible. With ~3 years of experience I barely get half of that at a Google L4 level equivalent.
- riknox 6y ago
  That's the unfortunate reality of working in Europe I think, especially in a lower cost of living country. I've just moved from Germany to the UK, and my salary has increased in gross terms (and an associated significant increase in net), but I lose many of the German provisions/safety nets that the high taxes pay for over there.
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  Genuine question, I have always wondered about this regarding EU based FAANG roles (I am making the leap that you are EU based): How statistically common/likely is it for EU based engineers to move to the US on a L-1 visa, specifically at google?
  - 0xfaded 6y ago
    I didn't work at google, but of the people I know, if H1B wasn't an option they would usually push through an O1.
- bawolff 6y ago
  In California, if you're making over a million dollars you're looking at 50.3% marginal income tax i believe, which is a lot more than the 35% cited by the parent as "expensive" and you're probably getting a lot less
  - randomchars 6y ago
    I can say without hesitation, that that's a problem I'd like to have. Besides housing, healthcare, and maybe barbers, everything is either cheaper, or costs the same as it is in most of Europe.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    So you'd still keep 500K, right? I could live with such salary,even in SV
    - 0xfaded 6y ago
zelos 6y ago
The median daily rate for sofware contractors in the UK is apparently around $500, which is probably over $100k/year. I guess that stops counting as Europe fairly soon, though.
- randomchars 6y ago
  > sofware contractors Contractors always earn more than employees though don't they?
  - zelos 6y ago
    Yes, but they're still software developers: most teams I've worked on have had plenty of contractors. It seems like the more experienced developers either stay permie and move into architecture/management or become contractors. There are plenty of "contractors in name only", too.
RestlessMind 6y ago
> Of course, there's other stuff - 30 (working) days of paid vacation, solid and cheap education, solid medical coverage (I consider $50 medical bill damn high) etc. I worked at FAANGs in Silicon Valley for many years. I always got at least 20 vacation days, 10-12 holidays (like Christmas or July 4th), excellent insurance plans and could pay off my 40-45K education loan in a breeze. Total cost of private education is ~25K per child. If you have a Software job at a FAANG in SV, it will be better than almost any other arrangement in Europe (exception: Zurich) even after taking into account vacation days, insurance premiums, California taxes, private schools cost and probability of gun violence.
- drevil-v2 6y ago
  I am curious what's special about Zurich that makes it an exception?

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

I suppose for a lot of non US engineers the main issue is not so much believing the compensation packages but actually navigating the legal constraints to be allowed to work in the US (or more specifically in SV, Seatle, NY, where those packages are available).

henvic 6y ago
I'd say in the US, as this is an immigration issue. Things are so much easier for those who have the luck of either being US citizens or somehow being allowed to legally work there...

durnygbur 6y ago

> I wouldn't even consider regular employment over here. You have a chance to complete for free a long queue of take home assignments which might end up with an employment for 2k EUR net monthly.

Rainymood 6y ago
As an EU engineer this ... pains me ... because how true it is ... please tell me about the promised land
0xfaded 6y ago
HAHAHA, this sounds laughable similar to all the "startup competitions" where the grand prize is pitching to some noname investor.

kuschku 6y ago

Personally, I think the SV numbers are just too high. Your attitude is a good example of the issues that come with that. We’re engineers, not royalty. There’s nothing any one of us could do that would justify these wages, if it wasn’t for US immigration policies causing an artificial supply/demand issue.

bawolff 6y ago
Well clearly there's something you can do to justify it because fb justifies it. This is business after all. Your value is a combination of what you bring to the company and how hard you are to replace. FB makes $$$, the $$$ didn't just appear out of thin air, it happened because of the people who work there. Giving engineers a share of all that money seems much more reasonable than giving zuckerberg a second private jet.
jhowell 6y ago
> We’re engineers, not royalty. There’s nothing any one of us could do that would justify these wages, if it wasn’t for US immigration policies causing an artificial supply/demand issue. Executives, CEOs and shareholders are all highly compensated for their risk in both time and money and are not "royalty." I would argue that being royal implies birth as an unjustifiably paid skill.
- kuschku 6y ago
  > Executives, CEOs and shareholders are all highly compensated for their risk in both time and money That too is wrong. Paying wages based on supply/demand instead of based on the value an employee actually provides leads to exactly this kind of heavily distorted labor markets.
  - quickthrower2 6y ago
    Well how do you define value? Is it workers should get enough for a modest life, a fair pay for a fair days work, the rest goes to shareholders?
  - 6y ago

redis_mlc 6y ago

Among developed economies, Canada is similar to Europe, and Japan is the worst for software engineers. The Balkans pay programmers like US 7-11 cashiers. :)