3 ms·

Why isn't anyone studying the Arabic states as UBI models? Incompatibility with western democracy? They are the closest to a large scale UBI system right now. M

Why isn't anyone studying the Arabic states as UBI models? Incompatibility with western democracy? They are the closest to a large scale UBI system right now. Much bigger than those toy hundred people sort-of-UBI-but-not-really experiments.

yourapostasy 6y ago
> Why isn't anyone studying the Arabic states as UBI models? Perceived cultural differences, possibly leading to more interesting, uncomfortable parallels than many would like. On the ground in the kingdom, in the field, there is an enormous cultural bias towards status, and low-status jobs are shunned. This is made more complex because of a subtle, more recent cultural bias that emerged from having foreigners perform almost all the work for so long, and foreigners in Wahhabi faith as it is practically practiced (in theory it is different) are considered inferior in an unenlightened sense. A halo effect emerged around private jobs, and now any job at all that used to be performed by foreigners is considered low(er) status. This is changing rapidly and gaining steam in numbers at the margins with many younger generations. I've met some incredibly brilliant, young KSA native engineers. Many are working hard to reverse the rot the Resource Curse visited upon the kingdom. However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that kingdom's experience as unique to it, saying that does not apply to America or many other developed nations. Considering the penchant for superficial solutions, get-rich-quick adulation, and de facto class stratifications in all developed nations, I'm not sanguine a UBI would elicit much better results than a Resource Curse. Norway is an exception that proves the rule, from what I've seen so far. And I wouldn't point fingers at just nations, either. Even here on HN, where startups with fast 10-1,000X liquidity events receive gallons of ink compared to the inkjet droplets miserly begrudged to to self-funding, slow organic growth companies, we engage in similar dynamics. Making someone or a nation fabulously wealthy and/or powerful doesn't change them, it only discloses their true character and moral fiber. The uncomfortable truth is a substantial portion of us, whether at the individual or nation-state level, when granted free reign with no one saying "No", are jerks. IMHO UBI is like pure communism or pure capitalism: they only sustainably and consistently work if the vast majority (I'd personally guess around 95%) are truly not jerks, and thus have the means to keep the levers of power away from those who are. BTW, I'm one of those jerks. Maybe not the biggest douche-canoe you've ever met, but I'm definitely a jerk, though I chip away at that.
XorNot 6y ago
Because they're not UBI, they're featherbedded kleptocracies. Everything keeps running provided they have the income to maintain the corruption and trickle down at every level to the officials who expect a varying scale of bribes and kickbacks. The system though ultimately is designed to ensure wealth flows upwards to the top, not to actually build a capitalist economy with a guaranteed minimum living standard.
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  But the effect is same. At the end of the day citizens survive on state welfare. Nobody said UBI is contingent on a corruption-free, western democracy.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    Sure but it's a worthless environment to study the effects: people underperforming are disproportionately compensated (there's no remotely fair career progression possible) - so we get no data on how it affects how people take job opportunities. The cost is staggering - far higher then UBI would cost - because of the corruption and bribes. And measures of social wellbeing - happiness and the like - are grossly distorted, what with the general pervading stress of ensuring you don't irritate or underbribe the wrong people and get cut to pieces with a bone saw.
    - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
      But do you expect any different from real UBI without any empirical evidence? It is easy to speculate that citizens would achieve some magical enlightened higher state of being where they would dedicate themselves in pursuit of the arts and entrepreneurship. The reality may be that most would just spend the day gaming and smoking marijuana. By discounting the Arabic states, it is doing social science and economics a disservice just because they do not fit the expectations of advocacy and academia. I don't think endemic corruption means that the Arabic model have absolutely zero value, they are hardly the only wealthy country with pervasive grift. Letting political views and biases leak into social science and economics is not helpful at all.
Shacklz 6y ago
Because the idea of UBI is that it's universal basic income, which keeps you fed and a roof over your head and other such basic things. I heavily doubt that the mentioned 30-40% of the population are okay to live with the bare minimum without having any interest in doing something to change that; that's only possible if your actual income allows for more than that, which seems to be the case in the Saudi States.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Because they’re wildly unstable autocracies?

yourapostasy 6y ago

> Why isn't anyone studying the Arabic states as UBI models? Perceived cultural differences, possibly leading to more interesting, uncomfortable parallels than many would like. On the ground in the kingdom, in the field, there is an enormous cultural bias towards status, and low-status jobs are shunned. This is made more complex because of a subtle, more recent cultural bias that emerged from having foreigners perform almost all the work for so long, and foreigners in Wahhabi faith as it is practically practiced (in theory it is different) are considered inferior in an unenlightened sense. A halo effect emerged around private jobs, and now any job at all that used to be performed by foreigners is considered low(er) status. This is changing rapidly and gaining steam in numbers at the margins with many younger generations. I've met some incredibly brilliant, young KSA native engineers. Many are working hard to reverse the rot the Resource Curse visited upon the kingdom. However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that kingdom's experience as unique to it, saying that does not apply to America or many other developed nations. Considering the penchant for superficial solutions, get-rich-quick adulation, and de facto class stratifications in all developed nations, I'm not sanguine a UBI would elicit much better results than a Resource Curse. Norway is an exception that proves the rule, from what I've seen so far. And I wouldn't point fingers at just nations, either. Even here on HN, where startups with fast 10-1,000X liquidity events receive gallons of ink compared to the inkjet droplets miserly begrudged to to self-funding, slow organic growth companies, we engage in similar dynamics. Making someone or a nation fabulously wealthy and/or powerful doesn't change them, it only discloses their true character and moral fiber. The uncomfortable truth is a substantial portion of us, whether at the individual or nation-state level, when granted free reign with no one saying "No", are jerks. IMHO UBI is like pure communism or pure capitalism: they only sustainably and consistently work if the vast majority (I'd personally guess around 95%) are truly not jerks, and thus have the means to keep the levers of power away from those who are. BTW, I'm one of those jerks. Maybe not the biggest douche-canoe you've ever met, but I'm definitely a jerk, though I chip away at that.

XorNot 6y ago

Because they're not UBI, they're featherbedded kleptocracies. Everything keeps running provided they have the income to maintain the corruption and trickle down at every level to the officials who expect a varying scale of bribes and kickbacks. The system though ultimately is designed to ensure wealth flows upwards to the top, not to actually build a capitalist economy with a guaranteed minimum living standard.

ampdepolymerase 6y ago
But the effect is same. At the end of the day citizens survive on state welfare. Nobody said UBI is contingent on a corruption-free, western democracy.
- XorNot 6y ago
  Sure but it's a worthless environment to study the effects: people underperforming are disproportionately compensated (there's no remotely fair career progression possible) - so we get no data on how it affects how people take job opportunities. The cost is staggering - far higher then UBI would cost - because of the corruption and bribes. And measures of social wellbeing - happiness and the like - are grossly distorted, what with the general pervading stress of ensuring you don't irritate or underbribe the wrong people and get cut to pieces with a bone saw.
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    But do you expect any different from real UBI without any empirical evidence? It is easy to speculate that citizens would achieve some magical enlightened higher state of being where they would dedicate themselves in pursuit of the arts and entrepreneurship. The reality may be that most would just spend the day gaming and smoking marijuana. By discounting the Arabic states, it is doing social science and economics a disservice just because they do not fit the expectations of advocacy and academia. I don't think endemic corruption means that the Arabic model have absolutely zero value, they are hardly the only wealthy country with pervasive grift. Letting political views and biases leak into social science and economics is not helpful at all.

Shacklz 6y ago

Because the idea of UBI is that it's universal basic income, which keeps you fed and a roof over your head and other such basic things. I heavily doubt that the mentioned 30-40% of the population are okay to live with the bare minimum without having any interest in doing something to change that; that's only possible if your actual income allows for more than that, which seems to be the case in the Saudi States.

ashtonkem 6y ago

Because they’re wildly unstable autocracies?