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If you VPN / Tor almost everything (except services that ban you from using a VPN), I don't know if they have much of a leg to stand on about that part. I use

by novok 6y ago

If you VPN / Tor almost everything (except services that ban you from using a VPN), I don't know if they have much of a leg to stand on about that part. I use VPNs so my ISP does not have a record of my internet traffic to sell to internet marketers and many other perfectly legal and moral reasons.

floatingatoll 6y ago
I can’t remember the name of one of those famous cases of people that got arrested for thinking that they could use TOR to break the law without punishment, but there’s been so many by now that I honestly don’t feel bad having forgotten. No doubt someone else does - Russ something, maybe? No doubt there’ll be some sort of “but it’s decentralized” reply and, yeah, it’s decentralized, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily untraceable. Bitcoin isn’t the sort of thing that’s worth betting my freedom on. YMMV.
- novok 6y ago
  Traceability through VPN / Tor is a different thing than being charged more for using a VPN, and I was more referencing the USA vs any generic country.
gruez 6y ago
>If you VPN / Tor almost everything (except services that ban you from using a VPN), I don't know if they have much of a leg to stand on about that part presumably they can also ban VPNs while they're at it, but it doesn't seem plausible. If your threat model is a tyrannical government willing to do anything (ie. ban encryption, backdoor every piece of computing equipment, install 1984 style telescreens everywhere), then there's no real way to defend it.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > If your threat model is a tyrannical government willing to do anything (ie. ban encryption, backdoor every piece of computing equipment, install 1984 style telescreens everywhere), then there's no real way to defend it. Well, there is, you just have to abandon the premise that doing what your adversary tells you to do is the right thing. Putting telescreens everywhere doesn't help them much if every one of them is immediately smashed with a rock and anyone who comes to repair it is also smashed with a rock. This requires a certain amount of public resistance, because you can't be the only one doing it, but a certain amount of public resistance is what systems like that tend to generate. And when you're not the only one doing it, they run out of telescreens and telescreen repair personnel before you run out of rocks.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Yeah except after the first repair man meets an untimely end you will too. This whole "my math can save me from a tyrannical government" thing is so tired. If they don't play by the rules, and want to stop you, they will. They'll take your knee caps, your finger nails, your life, or the entire nation's internet service down. No amount of math will change that. Here's a worked example. North Korea. Their leadership has amassed a few billion dollars of cryptocurrency they've used to finance their nuclear program. How much has crypto helped the average North Korean? Zero because it's super illegal, they'll get sent to the gulags, and their internal internet likely has it disabled seven ways to hell. Think of this like blowing smoke in the face of a cop. Is it illegal? Probably? Hard to say. Will you immediately be arrested for something else you happen to be doing at that very moment that just so happens to be illegal? Oh yeah. Technically correct is not the best kind of correct in this situation.
    - 1996 6y ago
      Ah, articbull as usual! Given our past interactions and your posting history, it's clear you have a strong dislike for crypto. However, your opinion (or mine) will be irrelevant. > They'll take your knee caps, your finger nails, your life, or the entire nation's internet service down They totally can! The only problem is they eventually run out of people or things the country can sell. And in the meantime, even before reaching that ultimate point, they destroy the economy by destroying hope: forced labor is less productive that voluntary labor. That's because it's hard to rule people who don't care anymore. Even the threat of death may not cut it: just look at the risks people took to flee the soviet block! A good tyrant applies just a sprinkle of violence. > Technically correct is not the best kind of correct in this situation. Indeed. And you are correct the government monopoly of violence keeps people in-line. But it's not without end: a tyrannical government survive only so long as the population is willing to tolerate it. As the person you replied to tried to explain, civil disobedience happens. If you need current examples, look no further than people not wearing masks, or the riots that happened on the 2nd lockdown of Europe: the more force you apply, the more resistance you get. I don't believe governments will find the "ideal" amount of violence to keep people in-line - not for something like money. The blue dollar in Argentina, the existence of a cash economy etc. - there are too many signs that show this can't be done. Same as for drug or alcohol: the prohibition failed. The war on drugs is currently failing. Yet it's clear that crypto will not operate in a wild west forever: just like the internet, some rules will be added, to tax it. But it won't go away, as governments prefer taxing to killing! Sorry to break your dream of crypto becoming illegal and drying, but that ship has sailed.
panarky 6y ago
> I use VPNs so my ISP does not have a record of my internet traffic Unless you're self-hosting your VPN, then your VPN has a record of your internet traffic, and most VPNs are even sketchier than your ISP.
cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
The government didn't have that much of an incentive to ban VPN and Tor until now (other than for capturing criminals). But if this law gets passed, the government will be financially incentivized to put more budget on enforcing this. They can easily make life difficult for VPN providers for example, and as a result the price will go up, and it will no longer make economic sense for casual users to use crypto.

by novok 6y ago

floatingatoll 6y ago

I can’t remember the name of one of those famous cases of people that got arrested for thinking that they could use TOR to break the law without punishment, but there’s been so many by now that I honestly don’t feel bad having forgotten. No doubt someone else does - Russ something, maybe? No doubt there’ll be some sort of “but it’s decentralized” reply and, yeah, it’s decentralized, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily untraceable. Bitcoin isn’t the sort of thing that’s worth betting my freedom on. YMMV.

novok 6y ago
Traceability through VPN / Tor is a different thing than being charged more for using a VPN, and I was more referencing the USA vs any generic country.

gruez 6y ago

>If you VPN / Tor almost everything (except services that ban you from using a VPN), I don't know if they have much of a leg to stand on about that part presumably they can also ban VPNs while they're at it, but it doesn't seem plausible. If your threat model is a tyrannical government willing to do anything (ie. ban encryption, backdoor every piece of computing equipment, install 1984 style telescreens everywhere), then there's no real way to defend it.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> If your threat model is a tyrannical government willing to do anything (ie. ban encryption, backdoor every piece of computing equipment, install 1984 style telescreens everywhere), then there's no real way to defend it. Well, there is, you just have to abandon the premise that doing what your adversary tells you to do is the right thing. Putting telescreens everywhere doesn't help them much if every one of them is immediately smashed with a rock and anyone who comes to repair it is also smashed with a rock. This requires a certain amount of public resistance, because you can't be the only one doing it, but a certain amount of public resistance is what systems like that tend to generate. And when you're not the only one doing it, they run out of telescreens and telescreen repair personnel before you run out of rocks.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Yeah except after the first repair man meets an untimely end you will too. This whole "my math can save me from a tyrannical government" thing is so tired. If they don't play by the rules, and want to stop you, they will. They'll take your knee caps, your finger nails, your life, or the entire nation's internet service down. No amount of math will change that. Here's a worked example. North Korea. Their leadership has amassed a few billion dollars of cryptocurrency they've used to finance their nuclear program. How much has crypto helped the average North Korean? Zero because it's super illegal, they'll get sent to the gulags, and their internal internet likely has it disabled seven ways to hell. Think of this like blowing smoke in the face of a cop. Is it illegal? Probably? Hard to say. Will you immediately be arrested for something else you happen to be doing at that very moment that just so happens to be illegal? Oh yeah. Technically correct is not the best kind of correct in this situation.
  - 1996 6y ago
    Ah, articbull as usual! Given our past interactions and your posting history, it's clear you have a strong dislike for crypto. However, your opinion (or mine) will be irrelevant. > They'll take your knee caps, your finger nails, your life, or the entire nation's internet service down They totally can! The only problem is they eventually run out of people or things the country can sell. And in the meantime, even before reaching that ultimate point, they destroy the economy by destroying hope: forced labor is less productive that voluntary labor. That's because it's hard to rule people who don't care anymore. Even the threat of death may not cut it: just look at the risks people took to flee the soviet block! A good tyrant applies just a sprinkle of violence. > Technically correct is not the best kind of correct in this situation. Indeed. And you are correct the government monopoly of violence keeps people in-line. But it's not without end: a tyrannical government survive only so long as the population is willing to tolerate it. As the person you replied to tried to explain, civil disobedience happens. If you need current examples, look no further than people not wearing masks, or the riots that happened on the 2nd lockdown of Europe: the more force you apply, the more resistance you get. I don't believe governments will find the "ideal" amount of violence to keep people in-line - not for something like money. The blue dollar in Argentina, the existence of a cash economy etc. - there are too many signs that show this can't be done. Same as for drug or alcohol: the prohibition failed. The war on drugs is currently failing. Yet it's clear that crypto will not operate in a wild west forever: just like the internet, some rules will be added, to tax it. But it won't go away, as governments prefer taxing to killing! Sorry to break your dream of crypto becoming illegal and drying, but that ship has sailed.

panarky 6y ago

> I use VPNs so my ISP does not have a record of my internet traffic Unless you're self-hosting your VPN, then your VPN has a record of your internet traffic, and most VPNs are even sketchier than your ISP.

cocktailpeanuts 6y ago

The government didn't have that much of an incentive to ban VPN and Tor until now (other than for capturing criminals). But if this law gets passed, the government will be financially incentivized to put more budget on enforcing this. They can easily make life difficult for VPN providers for example, and as a result the price will go up, and it will no longer make economic sense for casual users to use crypto.