5 ms·

This seems utterly counter-productive, considering the Max is now the most scrutinized plane in history. It's probably far safer now than other models.

by 0xy 6y ago

cjbprime 6y ago
FWIW, I don't see any pilots or aviation experts saying this. I think it's actually still poorly designed -- I don't think they added a third AoA sensor and used a quorum on them, as Airbus does given their own link of AoA to an automatic flight control.
- 0xy 6y ago
  There's been hundreds of independent pilots and experts who have signed off on the plane from multiple regulatory bodies and other independents. Including 565 independent pilots in Europe alone. [1] No other plane in the history of aviation has had this level of scrutiny. [1] https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boeing-737-max-safe-fly-says-european-regulator/ https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boeing-737-max-safe-fly-...
  - cjbprime 6y ago
    That's fine, but signing off on it just means that they were convinced that it's airworthy. Your own [1] link even says: > “While the software upgrades and changes are enough to get the plane back in the air, the agency is still demanding the development of a so-called synthetic sensor (that will be ready in 20 to 24 months) to reach even higher safety levels.” This seems clear that we're talking about a conditional airworthiness rather than absolute confidence, safest plane ever made, etc etc. Recall that you said "It's probably far safer now than other models". Why are you saying that given that the experts you quoted are using the paragraph above for this plane, when they don't have similar concerns and requirements for other models?
    - 0xy 6y ago
      Because safety is far from a binary equation. Safety is a sliding scale that never reaches 100%. If the Max is 99.9999% safe and regulators are demanding they make it at least 99.99991% safe it doesn't detract from my point. If other planes received this level of scrutiny, changes would similarly be demanded. The practice of re-badging old models is widespread. I'm telling you that personally, I'd exclusively travel on just the Max for the rest of my days and wouldn't lose sleep.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  Do you see lots of pilots or aviation experts saying the opposite? Are there Max pilots that have come out and said "I'm done flying that thing"?
  - tremon 6y ago
    How many airline pilots are in a position to publically say that and still keep their jobs?
    - alkonaut 6y ago
      You can speak out anonymously in media interviews. Ryanair pilots do this frequnetly when it comes to unions/working environment...
  - cjbprime 6y ago
    I argued that it is untrue that aviation experts and pilots now consider it to be much safer than other models as a result of the scrutiny. You asked if any of those people have publicly refused to fly it, presumably because they think it's a deathtrap. That isn't a response to my actual position, or something I expected to happen.
    - alkonaut 6y ago
      Fair enough
nobodyandproud 6y ago
That taking a short-term view. Boeing is a company that needs to take the long view, and the only way to make that happen is to vote with your dollars. If they can wave this away, then the necessary lessons haven’t been learned and the Jack Welch protege currently at the helm will be allowed to continue business as usual.
topspin 6y ago
> It's probably far safer now than other models. All 737 have an obsolescent fuselage design. It could not be certified given modern regulation and relies on being grandfathered for new production. The consequence is the fuselage can shatter on crash landings or runway overruns whereas more modern designs will hold together and protect passengers. The relatively minor training, hardware and software revisions of 737 MAX do not make it safer than other models. Reading the FAA documents one learns there is little interest in pursuing more fundamental problems. For instance, the trim wheel control force issue has been officially handwaved. This means your 737 pilot may need to be an athlete in the midst of dealing with failed systems and reading flight manuals. Modern designs have flight proven fly-by-wire systems and don't involve wrestling with crazy naval vessel-like mechanical wheels to control pitch.
- mlindner 6y ago
  > All 737 have an obsolescent fuselage design. It could not be certified given modern regulation and relies on being grandfathered for new production. [citation needed] It was never said that it was an unsafe design.
  - topspin 6y ago
    > [citation needed] It was never said that it was an unsafe design. [google it] I never claimed it was unsafe. I argued with the claim that, due to the additional scrutiny the 737 was now somehow 'far safer than other models.' It is not and no amount of additional scrutiny will change that.
- 0xy 6y ago
  Do you disagree with the 565 independent pilots and aviation experts who signed off on the Max in Europe alone? It's the most scrutinized plane in aviation history, and has been vetted by multiple regulatory bodies and received thousands of test flights since fixes were made. Honest question: if this isn't enough for you, what is? All other planes have been scrutinized far less. The bar for the Max to return was much much higher.
  - 6y ago

This seems utterly counter-productive, considering the Max is now the most scrutinized plane in history. It's probably far safer now than other models.

by 0xy 6y ago

This seems utterly counter-productive, considering the Max is now the most scrutinized plane in history. It's probably far safer now than other models.

cjbprime 6y ago

FWIW, I don't see any pilots or aviation experts saying this. I think it's actually still poorly designed -- I don't think they added a third AoA sensor and used a quorum on them, as Airbus does given their own link of AoA to an automatic flight control.

0xy 6y ago
There's been hundreds of independent pilots and experts who have signed off on the plane from multiple regulatory bodies and other independents. Including 565 independent pilots in Europe alone. [1] No other plane in the history of aviation has had this level of scrutiny. [1] https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boeing-737-max-safe-fly-says-european-regulator/ https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boeing-737-max-safe-fly-...
- cjbprime 6y ago
  That's fine, but signing off on it just means that they were convinced that it's airworthy. Your own [1] link even says: > “While the software upgrades and changes are enough to get the plane back in the air, the agency is still demanding the development of a so-called synthetic sensor (that will be ready in 20 to 24 months) to reach even higher safety levels.” This seems clear that we're talking about a conditional airworthiness rather than absolute confidence, safest plane ever made, etc etc. Recall that you said "It's probably far safer now than other models". Why are you saying that given that the experts you quoted are using the paragraph above for this plane, when they don't have similar concerns and requirements for other models?
  - 0xy 6y ago
    Because safety is far from a binary equation. Safety is a sliding scale that never reaches 100%. If the Max is 99.9999% safe and regulators are demanding they make it at least 99.99991% safe it doesn't detract from my point. If other planes received this level of scrutiny, changes would similarly be demanded. The practice of re-badging old models is widespread. I'm telling you that personally, I'd exclusively travel on just the Max for the rest of my days and wouldn't lose sleep.
alkonaut 6y ago
Do you see lots of pilots or aviation experts saying the opposite? Are there Max pilots that have come out and said "I'm done flying that thing"?
- tremon 6y ago
  How many airline pilots are in a position to publically say that and still keep their jobs?
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    You can speak out anonymously in media interviews. Ryanair pilots do this frequnetly when it comes to unions/working environment...
- cjbprime 6y ago
  I argued that it is untrue that aviation experts and pilots now consider it to be much safer than other models as a result of the scrutiny. You asked if any of those people have publicly refused to fly it, presumably because they think it's a deathtrap. That isn't a response to my actual position, or something I expected to happen.
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    Fair enough

nobodyandproud 6y ago

That taking a short-term view. Boeing is a company that needs to take the long view, and the only way to make that happen is to vote with your dollars. If they can wave this away, then the necessary lessons haven’t been learned and the Jack Welch protege currently at the helm will be allowed to continue business as usual.

topspin 6y ago

> It's probably far safer now than other models. All 737 have an obsolescent fuselage design. It could not be certified given modern regulation and relies on being grandfathered for new production. The consequence is the fuselage can shatter on crash landings or runway overruns whereas more modern designs will hold together and protect passengers. The relatively minor training, hardware and software revisions of 737 MAX do not make it safer than other models. Reading the FAA documents one learns there is little interest in pursuing more fundamental problems. For instance, the trim wheel control force issue has been officially handwaved. This means your 737 pilot may need to be an athlete in the midst of dealing with failed systems and reading flight manuals. Modern designs have flight proven fly-by-wire systems and don't involve wrestling with crazy naval vessel-like mechanical wheels to control pitch.

mlindner 6y ago
> All 737 have an obsolescent fuselage design. It could not be certified given modern regulation and relies on being grandfathered for new production. [citation needed] It was never said that it was an unsafe design.
- topspin 6y ago
  > [citation needed] It was never said that it was an unsafe design. [google it] I never claimed it was unsafe. I argued with the claim that, due to the additional scrutiny the 737 was now somehow 'far safer than other models.' It is not and no amount of additional scrutiny will change that.
0xy 6y ago
Do you disagree with the 565 independent pilots and aviation experts who signed off on the Max in Europe alone? It's the most scrutinized plane in aviation history, and has been vetted by multiple regulatory bodies and received thousands of test flights since fixes were made. Honest question: if this isn't enough for you, what is? All other planes have been scrutinized far less. The bar for the Max to return was much much higher.
- 6y ago