5 ms·

I'll never question whether I should give up my freedom for a train.

by artificialLimbs 6y ago

platinumrad 6y ago
Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society?
- majormajor 6y ago
  > Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society? Barbaric is a fun word, but one that would be easy to twist the other way. In one system you get to be crammed into a little train car with dozens of other people, in the other system you have some privacy and personal space and a seat... Again, pros and cons all over the place... the US doesn't have good trains because it built other systems instead due to the point in time in which many of its cities developed, and they are "good enough" that most people would see little benefit from ripping it all up to replace it with trains. It's worth noting too that "they make the trains run on time" is literally a cliche about certain types of government at this point, not some unique accomplishment.
  - platinumrad 6y ago
    Barbarism isn't some perceived discomfort (have you even been on a train?) with having to share a room with your fellow citizen for an hour or two. 35000 people dying in car accidents every year in America is barbarism. Destroying the planet so you can enjoy some "privacy and personal space" while (hopefully) attentively directing your 3000 pound death machine down the road is barbarism.
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    > In one system you get to be crammed into a little train car with dozens of other people, in the other system you have some privacy and personal space and a seat... If you have enough money for both options, then it's not surprising that the option which costs at least an order of magnitude more provides a slightly more comfortable seat.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  I'd hazard to guess there's no way to, "by your logic," someone who's already crossed the threshold of equating a working train system to slavery.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  our barbaric car-centric society? If you consider car-centric society barbaric, you've never experience barbarism, or understand what the word even means. Hyperbole is not helpful.
  - platinumrad 6y ago
    A society where in many regions every adult must wield a 3000 pound death machine to simply participate is indeed barbaric. I'm not sure what other term I should be using to describe a society that almost openly celebrates the way it is destroying the planet.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      If the only words in your toolbox are "barbaric," "death machine," and "destroying," don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously and stop engaging with you. Being factual and a little more subtle goes a long way.
    - medium_burrito 6y ago
      We call this society "Thunderdome"
  - bpt3 6y ago
    I've been very surprised about the vitrol on HN towards cars, which I also experienced recently when I posted some very basic facts about deaths caused by cars vs other means and have seen in some other threads. I live in an urban area and enjoy not having to drive long distances (or at all) to run errands, but I don't see them as an extenstential threat to humanity as many posters here apparently do. I still haven't figured it out.
whatshisface 6y ago
Fortunately, there are many non-authoritarian countries with working train systems. It is funny how Americans choose the worst countries to look up to for relatively mild accomplishments. Maybe because it would hurt our pride to talk about the successes of other countries without the safety blanket of thinking that we still wouldn't want to live there. Maybe out of a perverse sense of intellectual stimulation ("bad yet good, mmm how sophisticated."). It might also be that everyone imagines themselves as the powerful, decisive officials, without realizing that only a few people can occupy those spots; statistically, they should expect to be the peons. But whatever the reason it is funny whenever it happens.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  China built 16,000 miles of High Speed Rail in 10 years. California in the same period of time completed about 35 miles of high speed rail. I want to know how they could do this.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    Maybe you could look at other countries with high per-capita rail building projects. Japan has an okay system. The UK is better in that way than the US. Europe is filled with rail. The US is really the only rich country I can think of that doesn't have a workable passenger rail system.
    - justinzollars 6y ago
      The original article, is on China Governance. I pointed out how well they do infrastructure, related to the article.
      - bpt3 6y ago
        > I pointed out how well they do infrastructure, related to the article. And then you projected that all of western civilization is in decline because the US hasn't prioritized high speed rail. Among other things, this completely ignores the countries within the "West" that have high speed rail as well. That's what people are taking issue with, not that you pointed out that China has high speed rail.
vmception 6y ago
I censor myself on wechat just so I can take high speed trains lol Its actually not that hard and Chinese content platforms are a breath of fresh air Me thinks you would be surprised at what works The state there takes a paternal approach, like a literal parent, or teacher or school principle (or unit commander, or HR department). It isn’t that unrelatable, we all grew up in similar restrictions. When everyone agrees that is what the role of the state is, nobody is trying to be a freedom fighter to alter that
- gruez 6y ago
  >Its actually not that hard and Chinese content platforms are a breath of fresh air That's sort of like saying Chinese politics is a breath of fresh air because you don't have to worry about picking a side and hearing the various parties arguing with each other.
  - vmception 6y ago
    shrug they have a heavily neutered internet and it is a pleasant experience its a walled garden, at the country level, do you want a sticker because of your awareness of Beijing? there is simply a life beyond imagining it as oppressive all the time, when the reality is that you just hang out in communities in your niche and you dont have to worry about it being randomly politicized. A large part of the mindshare in the west is trying to figure out how to do that, checking out the other internet is probably good for your mental health
Denvercoder9 6y ago
At the same time it's worth it to consider why they manage to get it done quickly and efficiently, and we struggle to get it done at all. I don't believe a free society would (or should) fundamentally be completely incapable of building a high-speed train.
Rapzid 6y ago
Right. I guess Hong Kong's problem is they just haven't experienced China's rail system yet. /s
credit_guy 6y ago
Freedom is not a binary variable. The First Amendment protects the freedom of speech, but how many people feel comfortable to freely speak their mind at one of the corporate training courses on diversity and inclusion for example? People everywhere are smart and learn that if if you know what's good for you, there are some things you should say and some things you shouldn't. The set of things you should or shouldn't say may be different in China than in the US, but the curtailment of freedom is present in both places and different only in a matter of degree.
- gruez 6y ago
  >The First Amendment protects the freedom of speech, but how many people feel comfortable to freely speak their mind at one of the corporate training courses on diversity and inclusion for example? You clearly misunderstand what the First Amendment is about. It's a restraint on government, not a restraint on everyone else.
  - credit_guy 6y ago
    I know, but what difference does it make? Around 1865 we reached the conclusion that it is the duty of the Government to protect some people from having their freedom taken away by some other people. Since then the Constitution started imposing restraints not only on the ability of the Government to curtail your freedom, but also the ability of your fellow citizens to do so. And this is a good thing. But lately we started regressing. I'm talking about the cancel culture. Do you think that if one day a person were to be physically tarred and feathered by a crowd of puritans because of some perceived transgression, that is ok? But then if the tarring and feathering is in the digital world, and much more permanent (nothing is forgotten on the internet), is that ok? The end result is that people learn there are some things you can say, some things you can't, and some things you must say.
aeternum 6y ago
Freedom goes both ways. The decision is really about the 'freedom' of millions of commuters vs. the 'freedom' of home/landowners.

I'll never question whether I should give up my freedom for a train.

platinumrad 6y ago

Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society?

majormajor 6y ago
> Have you ever considered what freedoms we already lack due to our barbaric car-centric society? Barbaric is a fun word, but one that would be easy to twist the other way. In one system you get to be crammed into a little train car with dozens of other people, in the other system you have some privacy and personal space and a seat... Again, pros and cons all over the place... the US doesn't have good trains because it built other systems instead due to the point in time in which many of its cities developed, and they are "good enough" that most people would see little benefit from ripping it all up to replace it with trains. It's worth noting too that "they make the trains run on time" is literally a cliche about certain types of government at this point, not some unique accomplishment.
- platinumrad 6y ago
  Barbarism isn't some perceived discomfort (have you even been on a train?) with having to share a room with your fellow citizen for an hour or two. 35000 people dying in car accidents every year in America is barbarism. Destroying the planet so you can enjoy some "privacy and personal space" while (hopefully) attentively directing your 3000 pound death machine down the road is barbarism.
- tshaddox 6y ago
  > In one system you get to be crammed into a little train car with dozens of other people, in the other system you have some privacy and personal space and a seat... If you have enough money for both options, then it's not surprising that the option which costs at least an order of magnitude more provides a slightly more comfortable seat.
ianleeclark 6y ago
I'd hazard to guess there's no way to, "by your logic," someone who's already crossed the threshold of equating a working train system to slavery.
reaperducer 6y ago
our barbaric car-centric society? If you consider car-centric society barbaric, you've never experience barbarism, or understand what the word even means. Hyperbole is not helpful.
- platinumrad 6y ago
  A society where in many regions every adult must wield a 3000 pound death machine to simply participate is indeed barbaric. I'm not sure what other term I should be using to describe a society that almost openly celebrates the way it is destroying the planet.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    If the only words in your toolbox are "barbaric," "death machine," and "destroying," don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously and stop engaging with you. Being factual and a little more subtle goes a long way.
  - medium_burrito 6y ago
    We call this society "Thunderdome"
- bpt3 6y ago
  I've been very surprised about the vitrol on HN towards cars, which I also experienced recently when I posted some very basic facts about deaths caused by cars vs other means and have seen in some other threads. I live in an urban area and enjoy not having to drive long distances (or at all) to run errands, but I don't see them as an extenstential threat to humanity as many posters here apparently do. I still haven't figured it out.

whatshisface 6y ago

Fortunately, there are many non-authoritarian countries with working train systems. It is funny how Americans choose the worst countries to look up to for relatively mild accomplishments. Maybe because it would hurt our pride to talk about the successes of other countries without the safety blanket of thinking that we still wouldn't want to live there. Maybe out of a perverse sense of intellectual stimulation ("bad yet good, mmm how sophisticated."). It might also be that everyone imagines themselves as the powerful, decisive officials, without realizing that only a few people can occupy those spots; statistically, they should expect to be the peons. But whatever the reason it is funny whenever it happens.

justinzollars 6y ago
China built 16,000 miles of High Speed Rail in 10 years. California in the same period of time completed about 35 miles of high speed rail. I want to know how they could do this.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  Maybe you could look at other countries with high per-capita rail building projects. Japan has an okay system. The UK is better in that way than the US. Europe is filled with rail. The US is really the only rich country I can think of that doesn't have a workable passenger rail system.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    The original article, is on China Governance. I pointed out how well they do infrastructure, related to the article.
    - bpt3 6y ago
      > I pointed out how well they do infrastructure, related to the article. And then you projected that all of western civilization is in decline because the US hasn't prioritized high speed rail. Among other things, this completely ignores the countries within the "West" that have high speed rail as well. That's what people are taking issue with, not that you pointed out that China has high speed rail.

vmception 6y ago

I censor myself on wechat just so I can take high speed trains lol Its actually not that hard and Chinese content platforms are a breath of fresh air Me thinks you would be surprised at what works The state there takes a paternal approach, like a literal parent, or teacher or school principle (or unit commander, or HR department). It isn’t that unrelatable, we all grew up in similar restrictions. When everyone agrees that is what the role of the state is, nobody is trying to be a freedom fighter to alter that

gruez 6y ago
>Its actually not that hard and Chinese content platforms are a breath of fresh air That's sort of like saying Chinese politics is a breath of fresh air because you don't have to worry about picking a side and hearing the various parties arguing with each other.
- vmception 6y ago
  shrug they have a heavily neutered internet and it is a pleasant experience its a walled garden, at the country level, do you want a sticker because of your awareness of Beijing? there is simply a life beyond imagining it as oppressive all the time, when the reality is that you just hang out in communities in your niche and you dont have to worry about it being randomly politicized. A large part of the mindshare in the west is trying to figure out how to do that, checking out the other internet is probably good for your mental health

Denvercoder9 6y ago

At the same time it's worth it to consider why they manage to get it done quickly and efficiently, and we struggle to get it done at all. I don't believe a free society would (or should) fundamentally be completely incapable of building a high-speed train.

Rapzid 6y ago

Right. I guess Hong Kong's problem is they just haven't experienced China's rail system yet. /s

credit_guy 6y ago

Freedom is not a binary variable. The First Amendment protects the freedom of speech, but how many people feel comfortable to freely speak their mind at one of the corporate training courses on diversity and inclusion for example? People everywhere are smart and learn that if if you know what's good for you, there are some things you should say and some things you shouldn't. The set of things you should or shouldn't say may be different in China than in the US, but the curtailment of freedom is present in both places and different only in a matter of degree.

gruez 6y ago
>The First Amendment protects the freedom of speech, but how many people feel comfortable to freely speak their mind at one of the corporate training courses on diversity and inclusion for example? You clearly misunderstand what the First Amendment is about. It's a restraint on government, not a restraint on everyone else.
- credit_guy 6y ago
  I know, but what difference does it make? Around 1865 we reached the conclusion that it is the duty of the Government to protect some people from having their freedom taken away by some other people. Since then the Constitution started imposing restraints not only on the ability of the Government to curtail your freedom, but also the ability of your fellow citizens to do so. And this is a good thing. But lately we started regressing. I'm talking about the cancel culture. Do you think that if one day a person were to be physically tarred and feathered by a crowd of puritans because of some perceived transgression, that is ok? But then if the tarring and feathering is in the digital world, and much more permanent (nothing is forgotten on the internet), is that ok? The end result is that people learn there are some things you can say, some things you can't, and some things you must say.

aeternum 6y ago

Freedom goes both ways. The decision is really about the 'freedom' of millions of commuters vs. the 'freedom' of home/landowners.