5 ms·

Minor, but: Once I accompanied a domestic delegation to visit the United States. After dinner, we asked the waiter for an invoice, but the waiter did not know

by jefftk 6y ago

Minor, but: Once I accompanied a domestic delegation to visit the United States. After dinner, we asked the waiter for an invoice, but the waiter did not know what an invoice was, so we talked to the boss and explained to him that we need an invoice so that we can be reimbursed back in China. The restaurant boss listened to us with great bewilderment. He asked, “Aren't you eating for yourselves, so why are you having the government pay for it?” When travelling on business, asking for a receipt to be reimbursed is very normal. Perhaps the problem was asking for an "invoice" instead of a "receipt"?

z2 6y ago
They probably asked (conceptually) for a "fapiao", which is a very formal invoice in China but required for reimbursement [0] and is a government-acknowledged piece of paper declaring that a sales transaction really happened. Asking for one there would require the restaurant to log revenue live with the tax bureau. I discovered this by mistakenly asking for one in China, thinking it was just a receipt. I was led to the office of the restaurant, where they printed it onto half an A4 paper with carbon copies, e-verification serial number, and QR code. There are even more fascinating patterns that emerge from the incentives here--business don't like declaring revenue, so these sometimes have scratch-to-win lottery tickets built in, so to encourage everyone to request one (thus preventing tax evasion) [1]. The less formal option is a "shouju" but doesn't work for official business reimbursement. 0: https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapiao-and-when-do-i-need-one https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapia... 1: https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/ https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/
- R0b0t1 6y ago
  There are Western businesses that really do want an invoice, not a receipt. But since most governments don't go to the length China does to make an invoice functionally better than a receipt I don't see the point in this.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    What is the difference between an invoice and a receipt? I thought a receipt is just an invoice with the payment method and amount resulting in a zero balance.
    - R0b0t1 6y ago
      What was described to me was that accounting at that specific business wanted a longer form A4 paper description of the incurred costs for reimbursement instead of merely a receipt. How this differed in any important way is beyond me.
- solidsnack9000 6y ago
  The second link makes for interesting reading and is an in-depth example of the law of unintended consequences. I was particularly surprised to learn that fapiao (essentially tax receipts) are a way people and companies seek to manage their taxation, that this has led to companies imposing quotas on their staff for collecting fapiao (from any transactions at all), and that this drives demand in a gray market in discounted fapiao.
- rossng 6y ago
  This reminded me of an interesting scheme I encountered in North Macedonia last year. The government now allows citizens to claim a 15% refund on VAT up to a cap of about 500 USD per year[1]. The only way to get this refund is to ensure that you are issued a 'fiscal receipt'[2] for your purchases. These have a little QR code which you can scan into an app on your phone. Of course, the whole point of the system is to ensure that retailers actually declare revenue and therefore pay tax on it. I wonder if similar systems exist in more countries? [1] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-07/02/c_138190143.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-07/02/c_138190143.htm [2] https://www.geneko.rs/en/products/fiscal-products-and-solutions/fiscal-pos-printers-with-integrated-gprs-terminal/fiscalprint-fp200.html https://www.geneko.rs/en/products/fiscal-products-and-soluti...
  - pacamara619 6y ago
    In Croatia, where the VAT is 25%, the solution was: every customer has to be given a receipt without asking for one and the customer has to take the receipt and carry it out of the store. Stores who don't comply get massive fines.
  - danbolt 6y ago
    I visited Taiwan and noticed a similar setup. [1] To be honest, I really liked the idea as I feel like it could help the average person with personal budgeting. [1] https://guidetotaipei.com/article/taiwan-receipt-lottery-統一發票中獎號碼 https://guidetotaipei.com/article/taiwan-receipt-lottery-統一發...
east2west 6y ago
It is a case of lost in translation. Chinese use "invoice" for "receipt" because they use the same official form for actual invoices, I think, as a way of cracking down on tax avoidance. China has one of the highest sales tax at the retail level, including VAT and various fees; so high in fact the actual rate is a state secret. You can imagine the pressure on retailers, particularly, small shop owners, to avoid paying it. The government therefore introduced a system of official invoices that everybody including all retailers must use, and from carbon copy of invoices tax collectors can calculate sales amount and thereby tax owed. That is my understanding, anyway. I have been out of the country for so long, it must have changed a lot. Most of it must be electronic now, I imagine. I still remember a shop owner's audible complaints when I asked for an invoice around the time the system was initially introduced.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  How can one accurately charge sales tax if it is a state secret? At least in the US those kinds of taxes are declared on receipts themselves.
  - east2west 6y ago
    State secrets in China are not same as classified information in the West. State secrets mean: do not broadcast to average Chinese. It is a censorship tool, it is meant to protect the government from its citizens. You gave an excellent example. Tax rates are NOT on receipts in China. That would put pressure on the government to lower tax.
    - gruez 6y ago
      How hard could it be to find? Can't you ask your friend who's a business owner to tell you the rate?
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        Sure, but will you?
sempron64 6y ago
I understood this to mean that they did not pay and asked for a bill to be paid later by mail by their party office. Restaurants expect immediate payment, and he was accustomed to being billed later, not reimbursements on out-of-pocket expenses.
- powersnail 6y ago
  In China, you still pay out of pocket and receive a receipt to be reimbursed later. No restaurant that I know of accept payment by mail.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    That makes sense, but the confusion is understandable because "invoice" is usually a pre-payment document quoting the amount owed for the services rendered, and a receipt is a post-payment document acknowledging the amount paid.
    - powersnail 6y ago
      Likely a translation error. In Chinese, you ask for a 发票, which would be a “receipt”. However, I just tried Google translate, and it gave me “invoice”. Well, I think we’ve found the culprit.
tgb 6y ago
I also found that part baffling: the US government routinely reimburses for travel expenses including food.
- cstejerean 6y ago
  Which someone that travels for a business would know but perhaps a local restaurant manager might not be aware of.
  - Brian_K_White 6y ago
    I decline to even try to imagine anyone in any role in any service industry that hasn't heard of expense accounts. Come on.
  - ender341341 6y ago
    Most should, when I've asked for an itemized receipt I've almost always been asked if I want the alcohol separate and a few times have been offered to replace the alcohol items with appetizers/sides on the receipt because they know lots of places won't reimburse alcohol.

by jefftk 6y ago

z2 6y ago

They probably asked (conceptually) for a "fapiao", which is a very formal invoice in China but required for reimbursement [0] and is a government-acknowledged piece of paper declaring that a sales transaction really happened. Asking for one there would require the restaurant to log revenue live with the tax bureau. I discovered this by mistakenly asking for one in China, thinking it was just a receipt. I was led to the office of the restaurant, where they printed it onto half an A4 paper with carbon copies, e-verification serial number, and QR code. There are even more fascinating patterns that emerge from the incentives here--business don't like declaring revenue, so these sometimes have scratch-to-win lottery tickets built in, so to encourage everyone to request one (thus preventing tax evasion) [1]. The less formal option is a "shouju" but doesn't work for official business reimbursement. 0: https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapiao-and-when-do-i-need-one https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2019/08/29/what-is-a-fapia... 1: https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/ https://www.globalfromasia.com/fapiao/

R0b0t1 6y ago
There are Western businesses that really do want an invoice, not a receipt. But since most governments don't go to the length China does to make an invoice functionally better than a receipt I don't see the point in this.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  What is the difference between an invoice and a receipt? I thought a receipt is just an invoice with the payment method and amount resulting in a zero balance.
  - R0b0t1 6y ago
    What was described to me was that accounting at that specific business wanted a longer form A4 paper description of the incurred costs for reimbursement instead of merely a receipt. How this differed in any important way is beyond me.
solidsnack9000 6y ago
The second link makes for interesting reading and is an in-depth example of the law of unintended consequences. I was particularly surprised to learn that fapiao (essentially tax receipts) are a way people and companies seek to manage their taxation, that this has led to companies imposing quotas on their staff for collecting fapiao (from any transactions at all), and that this drives demand in a gray market in discounted fapiao.
rossng 6y ago
This reminded me of an interesting scheme I encountered in North Macedonia last year. The government now allows citizens to claim a 15% refund on VAT up to a cap of about 500 USD per year[1]. The only way to get this refund is to ensure that you are issued a 'fiscal receipt'[2] for your purchases. These have a little QR code which you can scan into an app on your phone. Of course, the whole point of the system is to ensure that retailers actually declare revenue and therefore pay tax on it. I wonder if similar systems exist in more countries? [1] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-07/02/c_138190143.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-07/02/c_138190143.htm [2] https://www.geneko.rs/en/products/fiscal-products-and-solutions/fiscal-pos-printers-with-integrated-gprs-terminal/fiscalprint-fp200.html https://www.geneko.rs/en/products/fiscal-products-and-soluti...
- pacamara619 6y ago
  In Croatia, where the VAT is 25%, the solution was: every customer has to be given a receipt without asking for one and the customer has to take the receipt and carry it out of the store. Stores who don't comply get massive fines.
- danbolt 6y ago
  I visited Taiwan and noticed a similar setup. [1] To be honest, I really liked the idea as I feel like it could help the average person with personal budgeting. [1] https://guidetotaipei.com/article/taiwan-receipt-lottery-統一發票中獎號碼 https://guidetotaipei.com/article/taiwan-receipt-lottery-統一發...

east2west 6y ago

It is a case of lost in translation. Chinese use "invoice" for "receipt" because they use the same official form for actual invoices, I think, as a way of cracking down on tax avoidance. China has one of the highest sales tax at the retail level, including VAT and various fees; so high in fact the actual rate is a state secret. You can imagine the pressure on retailers, particularly, small shop owners, to avoid paying it. The government therefore introduced a system of official invoices that everybody including all retailers must use, and from carbon copy of invoices tax collectors can calculate sales amount and thereby tax owed. That is my understanding, anyway. I have been out of the country for so long, it must have changed a lot. Most of it must be electronic now, I imagine. I still remember a shop owner's audible complaints when I asked for an invoice around the time the system was initially introduced.

bobthepanda 6y ago
How can one accurately charge sales tax if it is a state secret? At least in the US those kinds of taxes are declared on receipts themselves.
- east2west 6y ago
  State secrets in China are not same as classified information in the West. State secrets mean: do not broadcast to average Chinese. It is a censorship tool, it is meant to protect the government from its citizens. You gave an excellent example. Tax rates are NOT on receipts in China. That would put pressure on the government to lower tax.
  - gruez 6y ago
    How hard could it be to find? Can't you ask your friend who's a business owner to tell you the rate?
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Sure, but will you?

sempron64 6y ago

I understood this to mean that they did not pay and asked for a bill to be paid later by mail by their party office. Restaurants expect immediate payment, and he was accustomed to being billed later, not reimbursements on out-of-pocket expenses.

powersnail 6y ago
In China, you still pay out of pocket and receive a receipt to be reimbursed later. No restaurant that I know of accept payment by mail.
- jbay808 6y ago
  That makes sense, but the confusion is understandable because "invoice" is usually a pre-payment document quoting the amount owed for the services rendered, and a receipt is a post-payment document acknowledging the amount paid.
  - powersnail 6y ago
    Likely a translation error. In Chinese, you ask for a 发票, which would be a “receipt”. However, I just tried Google translate, and it gave me “invoice”. Well, I think we’ve found the culprit.

tgb 6y ago

I also found that part baffling: the US government routinely reimburses for travel expenses including food.

cstejerean 6y ago
Which someone that travels for a business would know but perhaps a local restaurant manager might not be aware of.
- Brian_K_White 6y ago
  I decline to even try to imagine anyone in any role in any service industry that hasn't heard of expense accounts. Come on.
- ender341341 6y ago
  Most should, when I've asked for an itemized receipt I've almost always been asked if I want the alcohol separate and a few times have been offered to replace the alcohol items with appetizers/sides on the receipt because they know lots of places won't reimburse alcohol.