15 ms·

With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's isolated from my phone, my employer can't see anything outside the profile and I just disab

With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's isolated from my phone, my employer can't see anything outside the profile and I just disable it on weekends/vacations.

inetknght 6y ago
> With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's not a big deal... until it is. Like when your boss/coworker gets involved in a work dispute and you get dragged into a deposition.
- izacus 6y ago
  You misunderstood - Android Work profile doesn't allow the employer to access any of your personal information. It keeps work and personal things separate by a wall. iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    No, I don't misunderstand. A deposition won't care whether things are separated by a software wall. A deposition will want everything on the device. So it's better to just not mix the two at all.
    - playcache 6y ago
      The ony way that would be possible is by them physically taking the device off you and asking for all your pin codes / passwords. The 'work profile' feature uses app-sandbox which in effects means every app runs as a Linux type isolated UID (not to differnt to a container), there is no breach around that unless some zero day attack comes to light, which would bw patched way before acme corps IT department picks it up. They need you to hand it over. If its your personal device, you just say piss off, no you can't have it.
      - icelancer 6y ago
        >> They need you to hand it over. If its your personal device, you just say piss off, no you can't have it. That's not how a subpoena works if it's on the same physical device. Good luck finding a judge who understands the concept of a "software wall."
        izacus 6y ago
        So you're saying that judge will ignore the separate profiles but it'll magically stop from depositioning all your phones that might contain work conversations? That's a tall order. Also, the title says that GOOGLE spied on someone - which is not a deposition, is it?
        bee_rider 6y ago
        I'm not sure how these subpoenas usually are worded specifically, but it doesn't seem like that contrived of a situation. Like, if you aren't the suspect and are ordered to hand over all devices used to communicate to <suspicious co-worker X>, if you have a separate device you just hand the thing over. If you hand over a personal phone, they are presumably going to bump into your walled off section and have some questions. Plus, you don't have a phone, while they are working on the thing, which seems like a pain. This is assuming you aren't in a "hand over all electronic devices" kind of situation.
        icelancer 6y ago
        >> So you're saying that judge will ignore the separate profiles but it'll magically stop from depositioning all your phones that might contain work conversations? Yes. Source: Been subpoenaed three times and my attorneys have had restrictions placed on what can/cannot be searched... like I am assuming most competent attorneys can provide. The party has to have reasonable indication that relevant data is on personal devices so the opposing counsel doesn't go goldfishing through a bunch of stuff to turn up potentially unrelated dirt in discovery.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - jayd16 6y ago
      Does a deposition care when you say you didn't use your personal phone for work? Why wouldn't they ask for your so-called personal phone?
      - inetknght 6y ago
        IANAL. I just have some knowledge/experience. A deposition about a work related issue may ask to see all devices that you use in connection with your employer. So yes, a deposition will care when you say you didn't use your personal phone for work if you can prove it by it not being on any device list found with work-related services. A device list can be obtained (usually easily, sometimes with a court order) through many services you use. G Suite, Github, Microsoft Account, Slack, Reddit, etc... these all track what devices have logged into them with your account. Signal and Telegram have your phone number. And of course any email sent has a list of addresses to which it was sent. So make sure your personal devices aren't found to be communicating with coworkers or vendors and you'll have a valid argument for "I didn't use my personal device for work". Whether it will stick will largely depend on how good the lawyers are because that's just one way your device can be in scope for a deposition. Another way would be if any messages from coworkers are sent to/from your personal email or phone number then that can also bring your devices into the scope of a deposition. It might depend on whether the content or context of the messages suggests that they're related to the subject of the deposition and that the conversation had been moved (eg, an attempt to hide it). Again, it largely depends on the quality of the lawyers involved.
      - gowld 6y ago
        Depositions don't assume you are honest.
  - teeray 6y ago
    I would still be concerned that laws are still focused on physical things. Even if there’s a personal / work virtual barrier, I wouldn’t want the presence of work information anywhere on a personal device transmuting that device into a work device in the eyes of the law.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      When vulnerabilities are found which meltdown (pun intended) those barriers perhaps it's not such a bad idea that the law is oldschool here. It's a sobering reminder that those walls are indeed only imaginary.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    > iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask. Regular MDM used to do that (just as Android used to do that), but Apple has been working on the same "wall" to separate work and personal info. https://www.apple.com/business/docs/resources/Managing_Devices_and_Corporate_Data_on_iOS.pdf#page=4 https://www.apple.com/business/docs/resources/Managing_Devic... https://simplemdm.com/apple-user-enrollment/ https://simplemdm.com/apple-user-enrollment/
- an_opabinia 6y ago
  It is utterly insane to me how confused people are in the rest of this thread. There are people getting paid like $200,000 a year, and they can't be bothered to pay a lawyer $3,000 to read their employment contract once and explain any of this to them?
  - shemnon42 6y ago
    What's the point of a $3000 contract review if the employer's response will be "Not changing it, sign or walk."
    - quesera 6y ago
      Well, it helps you decide whether to sign, or to walk, right? But who would pay $3K for a contract review??
      - an_opabinia 6y ago
        ...someone whom Google is about to make a millionaire?
        quesera 6y ago
        Employment contracts are fairly uniform, and just not that complicated. A simple contract review is not expensive. One or two hours, a few hundred dollars per -- if you're feeling fancy. Special cases are special. But most cases are not special.
    - lokar 6y ago
      What we know is one person said that's what happened. I certainly know of people who have suggested and gotten changes to agreements like this. But you need to be professional about it.
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        What do you mean by professional here? My guess is some mix of emotional detachment, serious tone and use of the right jargon and vocabulary?
aNoob7000 6y ago
Depends on the application. We run Blackberry UEM, and good luck it seeing profiles. The application just wants to take over the entire phone doesn't matter if it is an iPhone or Android. I walk around with two phones now, one for work and my personal one.
squarefoot 6y ago
Probably not applicable in OP's case. If XYZ company was my employer, the last tools I'd use to protect my data and communications would be any of XYZ's products.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Fun fact: If a judge orders you to surrender your phone because it might contain evidence relating to a case, it doesn't matter how you've segregated data on your phone. Sometimes businesses literally put some services on different physical boxes in case a court sees fit to collect the entire machine. If you had a bunch of other VMs on it... shrug.
- dheera 6y ago
  We need an OS that self-destructs all data if surrendered, and that should be a hardcoded feature of the OS. Something like a fingerprint scanner that needs to be scanned at least once every 24 hours or all data gets erased.
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    This still means you don't have your personal phone if you have to surrender your work one, and they live on the same hardware. Even if you wiped the data, if the government wants to seize your crud, they're still gonna take it.
    - dheera 6y ago
      You just buy a new personal phone in that case. At least the data is wiped the moment they seized it. Imagine a hypothetical phone that is covered in fingerprint sensors where if it senses foreign hands touching it, it auto-deletes everything. That might not be the most feasible hardware implementation but I'm sure we can think of something to that effect.
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    Only if it is a state owned (diplomatic) device. Without diplomatic protection, you can be can be charged with, depending on jurisdiction and circumstance, anything from evidence tampering, obstruction of justice, to contempt of court. Technical hacks to human problems are only viable when you are shielded by sovereignty.
    - 6y ago
throwaway2048 6y ago
Google is a special case, via play store the effectively have complete control of almost every android phone. Its foolish to think they wouldn't use it.
liveoneggs 6y ago
yeah android phones are totally safe from google

With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's isolated from my phone, my employer can't see anything outside the profile and I just disable it on weekends/vacations.

inetknght 6y ago

> With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's not a big deal... until it is. Like when your boss/coworker gets involved in a work dispute and you get dragged into a deposition.

izacus 6y ago
You misunderstood - Android Work profile doesn't allow the employer to access any of your personal information. It keeps work and personal things separate by a wall. iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask.
- inetknght 6y ago
  No, I don't misunderstand. A deposition won't care whether things are separated by a software wall. A deposition will want everything on the device. So it's better to just not mix the two at all.
  - playcache 6y ago
    The ony way that would be possible is by them physically taking the device off you and asking for all your pin codes / passwords. The 'work profile' feature uses app-sandbox which in effects means every app runs as a Linux type isolated UID (not to differnt to a container), there is no breach around that unless some zero day attack comes to light, which would bw patched way before acme corps IT department picks it up. They need you to hand it over. If its your personal device, you just say piss off, no you can't have it.
    - icelancer 6y ago
      >> They need you to hand it over. If its your personal device, you just say piss off, no you can't have it. That's not how a subpoena works if it's on the same physical device. Good luck finding a judge who understands the concept of a "software wall."
      - izacus 6y ago
        So you're saying that judge will ignore the separate profiles but it'll magically stop from depositioning all your phones that might contain work conversations? That's a tall order. Also, the title says that GOOGLE spied on someone - which is not a deposition, is it?
        bee_rider 6y ago
        I'm not sure how these subpoenas usually are worded specifically, but it doesn't seem like that contrived of a situation. Like, if you aren't the suspect and are ordered to hand over all devices used to communicate to <suspicious co-worker X>, if you have a separate device you just hand the thing over. If you hand over a personal phone, they are presumably going to bump into your walled off section and have some questions. Plus, you don't have a phone, while they are working on the thing, which seems like a pain. This is assuming you aren't in a "hand over all electronic devices" kind of situation.
        icelancer 6y ago
        >> So you're saying that judge will ignore the separate profiles but it'll magically stop from depositioning all your phones that might contain work conversations? Yes. Source: Been subpoenaed three times and my attorneys have had restrictions placed on what can/cannot be searched... like I am assuming most competent attorneys can provide. The party has to have reasonable indication that relevant data is on personal devices so the opposing counsel doesn't go goldfishing through a bunch of stuff to turn up potentially unrelated dirt in discovery.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - jayd16 6y ago
    Does a deposition care when you say you didn't use your personal phone for work? Why wouldn't they ask for your so-called personal phone?
    - inetknght 6y ago
      IANAL. I just have some knowledge/experience. A deposition about a work related issue may ask to see all devices that you use in connection with your employer. So yes, a deposition will care when you say you didn't use your personal phone for work if you can prove it by it not being on any device list found with work-related services. A device list can be obtained (usually easily, sometimes with a court order) through many services you use. G Suite, Github, Microsoft Account, Slack, Reddit, etc... these all track what devices have logged into them with your account. Signal and Telegram have your phone number. And of course any email sent has a list of addresses to which it was sent. So make sure your personal devices aren't found to be communicating with coworkers or vendors and you'll have a valid argument for "I didn't use my personal device for work". Whether it will stick will largely depend on how good the lawyers are because that's just one way your device can be in scope for a deposition. Another way would be if any messages from coworkers are sent to/from your personal email or phone number then that can also bring your devices into the scope of a deposition. It might depend on whether the content or context of the messages suggests that they're related to the subject of the deposition and that the conversation had been moved (eg, an attempt to hide it). Again, it largely depends on the quality of the lawyers involved.
    - gowld 6y ago
      Depositions don't assume you are honest.
- teeray 6y ago
  I would still be concerned that laws are still focused on physical things. Even if there’s a personal / work virtual barrier, I wouldn’t want the presence of work information anywhere on a personal device transmuting that device into a work device in the eyes of the law.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    When vulnerabilities are found which meltdown (pun intended) those barriers perhaps it's not such a bad idea that the law is oldschool here. It's a sobering reminder that those walls are indeed only imaginary.
- judge2020 6y ago
  > iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask. Regular MDM used to do that (just as Android used to do that), but Apple has been working on the same "wall" to separate work and personal info. https://www.apple.com/business/docs/resources/Managing_Devices_and_Corporate_Data_on_iOS.pdf#page=4 https://www.apple.com/business/docs/resources/Managing_Devic... https://simplemdm.com/apple-user-enrollment/ https://simplemdm.com/apple-user-enrollment/
an_opabinia 6y ago
It is utterly insane to me how confused people are in the rest of this thread. There are people getting paid like $200,000 a year, and they can't be bothered to pay a lawyer $3,000 to read their employment contract once and explain any of this to them?
- shemnon42 6y ago
  What's the point of a $3000 contract review if the employer's response will be "Not changing it, sign or walk."
  - quesera 6y ago
    Well, it helps you decide whether to sign, or to walk, right? But who would pay $3K for a contract review??
    - an_opabinia 6y ago
      ...someone whom Google is about to make a millionaire?
      - quesera 6y ago
        Employment contracts are fairly uniform, and just not that complicated. A simple contract review is not expensive. One or two hours, a few hundred dollars per -- if you're feeling fancy. Special cases are special. But most cases are not special.
  - lokar 6y ago
    What we know is one person said that's what happened. I certainly know of people who have suggested and gotten changes to agreements like this. But you need to be professional about it.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      What do you mean by professional here? My guess is some mix of emotional detachment, serious tone and use of the right jargon and vocabulary?

aNoob7000 6y ago

Depends on the application. We run Blackberry UEM, and good luck it seeing profiles. The application just wants to take over the entire phone doesn't matter if it is an iPhone or Android. I walk around with two phones now, one for work and my personal one.

squarefoot 6y ago

Probably not applicable in OP's case. If XYZ company was my employer, the last tools I'd use to protect my data and communications would be any of XYZ's products.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

Fun fact: If a judge orders you to surrender your phone because it might contain evidence relating to a case, it doesn't matter how you've segregated data on your phone. Sometimes businesses literally put some services on different physical boxes in case a court sees fit to collect the entire machine. If you had a bunch of other VMs on it... shrug.

dheera 6y ago
We need an OS that self-destructs all data if surrendered, and that should be a hardcoded feature of the OS. Something like a fingerprint scanner that needs to be scanned at least once every 24 hours or all data gets erased.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  This still means you don't have your personal phone if you have to surrender your work one, and they live on the same hardware. Even if you wiped the data, if the government wants to seize your crud, they're still gonna take it.
  - dheera 6y ago
    You just buy a new personal phone in that case. At least the data is wiped the moment they seized it. Imagine a hypothetical phone that is covered in fingerprint sensors where if it senses foreign hands touching it, it auto-deletes everything. That might not be the most feasible hardware implementation but I'm sure we can think of something to that effect.
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  Only if it is a state owned (diplomatic) device. Without diplomatic protection, you can be can be charged with, depending on jurisdiction and circumstance, anything from evidence tampering, obstruction of justice, to contempt of court. Technical hacks to human problems are only viable when you are shielded by sovereignty.
  - 6y ago

throwaway2048 6y ago

Google is a special case, via play store the effectively have complete control of almost every android phone. Its foolish to think they wouldn't use it.

liveoneggs 6y ago

yeah android phones are totally safe from google