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Worth clarifying that this is about Moderna and Pfizer’s new Covid-19 vaccines and about "minorities" in the US. Not all vaccines are developed in the US and p

Worth clarifying that this is about Moderna and Pfizer’s new Covid-19 vaccines and about "minorities" in the US. Not all vaccines are developed in the US and people who are a minority in the US are not necessarily minorities elsewhere.

jdxcode 6y ago
At a meta level, does minority even truly mean “minority” anymore? If I said “minorities” referring to people in California people would assume I’m referring to Latinos and not White people even though there are more Latinos than White people. Is there a more accurate term I’m not aware of?
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  Yes, we all know it's a terrible word for this purpose.
- jedimastert 6y ago
  It really is just important to discuss the context. Usually, if a disadvantage is discussed in relation to a "minority", it generally has less to do with the real world diaspora they belong to and more the fact that they are in the minority. For instance, the fact that "minorities" are more susceptible to COVID in the first place (in the US, at least) isn't because of racial makeup or ancestral heritage, but rather because marginalized people in the US are more likely to be in "front line" jobs that come in contact with large groups of people (service workers, hospital janitorial staff, food workers, the like) and much less likely to be in a position to remove themselves or work from home.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  In this context, the context is the US, not California. Latinos are a minority in the US, regardless of what they are in California or the world. We're trying to talk about the vaccine's effectiveness. We're trying to talk about biology, and it's kind of urgent at the moment. Can we please give sociology issues a pass for a bit?
  - jdxcode 6y ago
    I'm not talking about this study or even sociological issues necessarily: I'm just looking to be able to use language to speak more directly.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  It's a fact that there's a genetic component in susceptibility to different diseases. One example: the 1918 Spanish Flu killed > 5 % of people on the Indian Subcontinent, but in China it was hardly noticeable in the death figures. Instead of pussyfooting around the issue of Race in America (it is an issue, mind), one should say that in population X the vaccine may be less efficaceous.
  - jdxcode 6y ago
    literally nothing to do with what I asked EDIT: apologies HarryHirsch, it was relevant if I just read until the end. You did explain a better way to phrase it. I think you're right that using the word "population" is better here. Good reminder to me to make sure I understand what someone is saying before rejecting them.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
spuz 6y ago
The article says: > the team found that the number of people whose immune system didn’t robustly respond to the vaccine ranged from less than half of one percent of white participants to nearly 10 percent of Asian participants. ... our preliminary results suggest that, on average, people of Black or Asian ancestry could have a slightly increased risk of vaccine ineffectiveness It would be more accurate to say that a person's race may have an effect on the effectiveness of a vaccine but it's still relevant to class them as minorities in the places where the effectiveness is being studied. If a vaccine is being studied in a population of 40000 and only 100 of those people are black, you won't be able to learn as much about the vaccine's effects on people of a certain race because of the low sample size. It's of course relevant for those in countries where those races are majority and more studies need to be done in those places as well.
phobosanomaly 6y ago
Exactly! There are some absolutely brilliant scientists in China working on vaccine development right now! Let's stop hand-wringing, this is a global public health issue, not a political issue, and China is working on it too. "If China’s COVID-19 vaccines work, manufacturers say they could turn out 1.5 billion doses in total next year. And countries that cannot access vaccines bankrolled by Warp Speed—especially those that hosted China’s efficacy trials—might have a more secure vaccine supply." "Yanzhong Huang, a global health specialist at both Seton Hall University and the Council on Foreign Relations, says the country is “actually using the vaccine to promote the diplomacy of foreign policy objectives.” This “vaccine diplomacy” he says, contrasts starkly with Warp Speed’s “vaccine nationalism” and aims to “fill in the void left by the United States.” “It is a very carefully executed and carefully thought out strategy,” says Stephen Morrison, who directs the Global Health Policy Center at the Center for Strategic & International Studies. “A strategic goal of the Chinese government is to achieve hegemonic influence in the bioeconomy within the next decade.” "At home, too, attitudes toward vaccines contrast with those in the United States and Europe, where mistrust is high, Morrison says. To the consternation of vaccine experts overseas, hundreds of thousands of people in China have already lined up to receive the experimental vaccines—even before their value and safety have been proved. “There has not been a collapse of faith and trust in science and in the state,” Morrison says. “There’s less fear about where this is all going.” https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/global-push-covid-19-vaccines-china-aims-win-friends-and-cut-deals https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/global-push-covid-19... I'm not a huge fan of a lot of what the Chinese government does, but the U.S. is in the throes of some seriously crazy shit right now, and could take a lesson.

jdxcode 6y ago

At a meta level, does minority even truly mean “minority” anymore? If I said “minorities” referring to people in California people would assume I’m referring to Latinos and not White people even though there are more Latinos than White people. Is there a more accurate term I’m not aware of?

Ericson2314 6y ago
Yes, we all know it's a terrible word for this purpose.
jedimastert 6y ago
It really is just important to discuss the context. Usually, if a disadvantage is discussed in relation to a "minority", it generally has less to do with the real world diaspora they belong to and more the fact that they are in the minority. For instance, the fact that "minorities" are more susceptible to COVID in the first place (in the US, at least) isn't because of racial makeup or ancestral heritage, but rather because marginalized people in the US are more likely to be in "front line" jobs that come in contact with large groups of people (service workers, hospital janitorial staff, food workers, the like) and much less likely to be in a position to remove themselves or work from home.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
In this context, the context is the US, not California. Latinos are a minority in the US, regardless of what they are in California or the world. We're trying to talk about the vaccine's effectiveness. We're trying to talk about biology, and it's kind of urgent at the moment. Can we please give sociology issues a pass for a bit?
- jdxcode 6y ago
  I'm not talking about this study or even sociological issues necessarily: I'm just looking to be able to use language to speak more directly.
HarryHirsch 6y ago
It's a fact that there's a genetic component in susceptibility to different diseases. One example: the 1918 Spanish Flu killed > 5 % of people on the Indian Subcontinent, but in China it was hardly noticeable in the death figures. Instead of pussyfooting around the issue of Race in America (it is an issue, mind), one should say that in population X the vaccine may be less efficaceous.
- jdxcode 6y ago
  literally nothing to do with what I asked EDIT: apologies HarryHirsch, it was relevant if I just read until the end. You did explain a better way to phrase it. I think you're right that using the word "population" is better here. Good reminder to me to make sure I understand what someone is saying before rejecting them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

spuz 6y ago

The article says: > the team found that the number of people whose immune system didn’t robustly respond to the vaccine ranged from less than half of one percent of white participants to nearly 10 percent of Asian participants. ... our preliminary results suggest that, on average, people of Black or Asian ancestry could have a slightly increased risk of vaccine ineffectiveness It would be more accurate to say that a person's race may have an effect on the effectiveness of a vaccine but it's still relevant to class them as minorities in the places where the effectiveness is being studied. If a vaccine is being studied in a population of 40000 and only 100 of those people are black, you won't be able to learn as much about the vaccine's effects on people of a certain race because of the low sample size. It's of course relevant for those in countries where those races are majority and more studies need to be done in those places as well.

phobosanomaly 6y ago

Exactly! There are some absolutely brilliant scientists in China working on vaccine development right now! Let's stop hand-wringing, this is a global public health issue, not a political issue, and China is working on it too. "If China’s COVID-19 vaccines work, manufacturers say they could turn out 1.5 billion doses in total next year. And countries that cannot access vaccines bankrolled by Warp Speed—especially those that hosted China’s efficacy trials—might have a more secure vaccine supply." "Yanzhong Huang, a global health specialist at both Seton Hall University and the Council on Foreign Relations, says the country is “actually using the vaccine to promote the diplomacy of foreign policy objectives.” This “vaccine diplomacy” he says, contrasts starkly with Warp Speed’s “vaccine nationalism” and aims to “fill in the void left by the United States.” “It is a very carefully executed and carefully thought out strategy,” says Stephen Morrison, who directs the Global Health Policy Center at the Center for Strategic & International Studies. “A strategic goal of the Chinese government is to achieve hegemonic influence in the bioeconomy within the next decade.” "At home, too, attitudes toward vaccines contrast with those in the United States and Europe, where mistrust is high, Morrison says. To the consternation of vaccine experts overseas, hundreds of thousands of people in China have already lined up to receive the experimental vaccines—even before their value and safety have been proved. “There has not been a collapse of faith and trust in science and in the state,” Morrison says. “There’s less fear about where this is all going.” https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/global-push-covid-19-vaccines-china-aims-win-friends-and-cut-deals https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/global-push-covid-19... I'm not a huge fan of a lot of what the Chinese government does, but the U.S. is in the throes of some seriously crazy shit right now, and could take a lesson.