4 ms·

You can sort-of argue that there are examples of ethical milking if you just consider the direct action of milking, however if we look to the bigger picture of

You can sort-of argue that there are examples of ethical milking if you just consider the direct action of milking, however if we look to the bigger picture of dairy production — which includes how the cow came to be and what the milk is intended for and why the cow needs to be milked — it becomes more difficult because dairy cows have been bred to produce more milk to the detriment of their health: you’d need to find an example of the more broad “ethical dairy production” and that’s a lot more difficult, as almost all dairy production builds on the unethical behaviour of the past.

0xy 6y ago
Are you suggesting we cull dairy cows to eliminate the tainted breed?
- nobodywasishere 6y ago
  Not OP but I'm suggesting we never breed them into existence in the first place
  - merpnderp 6y ago
    Given human survival often relied upon farmed livestock how can you say this? By using this metric for a species's survival nearly nothing should be allowed to live. If you think farming animals is bad wait until you see a Hyena eating the guts out of an animal that is still alive, and will be for most of the meal.
    - svrtknst 6y ago
      hyenas or old human populations dont have the ability or opportunity to reduce harm we do farming animals is bad no matter what hyenas do, that's such a weird counterargument
      - merpnderp 6y ago
        You obviously didn't even read the comment I was responding to or are misinterpreting my point so you can attack a straw man.
      - jolux 6y ago
        I think the argument is that we have derived massive benefits from farming as a species that outweigh the amount of suffering we’ve caused in the process. I’m not sure I agree, but then I do eat meat.
        hombre_fatal 6y ago
        Well, their argument is surely either "we benefited from X then, thus we should continue doing X now despite having other options" or it's "animals already do bad things in nature, so why care when we do it despite having other options?" Neither of which is a very compelling position.
    - badRNG 6y ago
      >Given human survival often relied upon farmed livestock how can you say this? By using this metric for a species' survival nearly nothing should be allowed to live. When considering an ethical question, typically one must have the "ability to have acted differently." To be grotesque: I may be justified in eating a dead relative to survive in some nightmare scenario, however its permissibility here doesn't allow me the opportunity to desecrate human corpses for pleasurable eating. Is it possible there was a point at which humans were required to perform otherwise unethical acts to survive? Yes, absolutely. Does that permit the same behavior when its necessity no longer exists? I wouldn't think so. >If you think farming animals is bad wait until you see a Hyena eating the guts out of an animal that is still alive, and will be for most of the meal. Hyena's aren't moral agents, they cannot consider the ethical content of their decisions. Even if they were, the bad behavior of one moral agent usually isn't a justification for another's unethical behavior.
    - Falling3 6y ago
      What moral questions are you comfortable using the actions of hyenas to justify?
      - merpnderp 6y ago
        How could this possibly pertain to the conversation you are responding to? Or do you just ask randos this question to make friends?
        Falling3 6y ago
        It pertains pretty specifically to the comment I replied to. I'm not sure how that's not clear?
        merpnderp 6y ago
        Since you don't seem to get the point, I'll turn it around. How many humans are comfortable causing the deaths of if you could go back in time and make sure no animals were ever domesticated for livestock? Are you comfortable killing a million people? A hundred million? Do you have a maximum?
        Falling3 6y ago
        Oh I see you were the original commenter as well. Are you disputing the idea that you tried to use the actions of a specific wild animal to justify our treatment of animals? I mean, I get it. It's a really common tactic. I'm just confused by your surprise.
        merpnderp 6y ago
        Why would you think I was the start of this thread, can't you see the usernames? A person said we should never have domesticated animals in the first place because it is cruel. I said that if being cruel to animals to ensure your species survival is wrong, nearly nothing deserves to live. You then took that out of context and made some bizarre assumptions about ethics and hyenas. You were wrong, and I get your confusion. Following these threads is hard. But it's okay.
- vegannet 6y ago
  This is a funny line that I hear a lot as a vegan and it’s based on a misunderstanding. Veganism is actually quite pragmatic, veganism is not driven by saving lives it is driven by harm reduction. If I thought that the greatest harm reduction outcome for dairy cows could be achieved by a mass cull, I would support it.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
There is the same dilemma for many other animals too. What harm does it do to a chicken if you simply snatch the eggs it was already laying on your property, or shear a sheep that already had locks of wool? Unfortunately the first harm was done by breeding species that ovulate daily or produce so much fur that it would die without human intervention.
mikepurvis 6y ago
My town has a Guernsey farm [1] just outside it, so that milk is available at our local food markets. It's wild how expensive it is. Like, the regular cheapo milk at the grocery store is $4-5 for 4L, and the Eby Manor milk is $5 for 1L, basically four times the cost. Now, they're a small time operation doing a specialty product, so I'm sure that contributes a lot to this cost bump— they justify this mostly by touting health benefits rather than talking about the sustainability of their operation, but I suspect that getting many animal-based food products to a more sustainable place would require a similarly eye-watering bump up in price. Which is, of course, part of the argument for going part-time vegetarian/vegan— get used to the idea of meat and animal products being something we enjoy once or twice a week or a few times a month, rather than multiple times per day. [1]: https://ebymanor.ca/our-family-farm/ https://ebymanor.ca/our-family-farm/
- ThrowawayIP 6y ago
  Most of that page is dedicated to how "nicely" that farmer treats his herd. But, there are a few omissions. How do they care for cows that are no longer capable of becoming pregnant? [0] How do they control the size of the herd when each cow is giving birth about 3-4 times over a 4-5 year "lifespan?" Even at four times the cost, the industry doesn't look any better. [0]: https://www.agweb.com/article/deciding-when-dairy-cow-starts-her-second-career https://www.agweb.com/article/deciding-when-dairy-cow-starts...

0xy 6y ago

Are you suggesting we cull dairy cows to eliminate the tainted breed?

nobodywasishere 6y ago
Not OP but I'm suggesting we never breed them into existence in the first place
- merpnderp 6y ago
  Given human survival often relied upon farmed livestock how can you say this? By using this metric for a species's survival nearly nothing should be allowed to live. If you think farming animals is bad wait until you see a Hyena eating the guts out of an animal that is still alive, and will be for most of the meal.
  - svrtknst 6y ago
    hyenas or old human populations dont have the ability or opportunity to reduce harm we do farming animals is bad no matter what hyenas do, that's such a weird counterargument
    - merpnderp 6y ago
      You obviously didn't even read the comment I was responding to or are misinterpreting my point so you can attack a straw man.
    - jolux 6y ago
      I think the argument is that we have derived massive benefits from farming as a species that outweigh the amount of suffering we’ve caused in the process. I’m not sure I agree, but then I do eat meat.
      - hombre_fatal 6y ago
        Well, their argument is surely either "we benefited from X then, thus we should continue doing X now despite having other options" or it's "animals already do bad things in nature, so why care when we do it despite having other options?" Neither of which is a very compelling position.
  - badRNG 6y ago
    >Given human survival often relied upon farmed livestock how can you say this? By using this metric for a species' survival nearly nothing should be allowed to live. When considering an ethical question, typically one must have the "ability to have acted differently." To be grotesque: I may be justified in eating a dead relative to survive in some nightmare scenario, however its permissibility here doesn't allow me the opportunity to desecrate human corpses for pleasurable eating. Is it possible there was a point at which humans were required to perform otherwise unethical acts to survive? Yes, absolutely. Does that permit the same behavior when its necessity no longer exists? I wouldn't think so. >If you think farming animals is bad wait until you see a Hyena eating the guts out of an animal that is still alive, and will be for most of the meal. Hyena's aren't moral agents, they cannot consider the ethical content of their decisions. Even if they were, the bad behavior of one moral agent usually isn't a justification for another's unethical behavior.
  - Falling3 6y ago
    What moral questions are you comfortable using the actions of hyenas to justify?
    - merpnderp 6y ago
      How could this possibly pertain to the conversation you are responding to? Or do you just ask randos this question to make friends?
      - Falling3 6y ago
        It pertains pretty specifically to the comment I replied to. I'm not sure how that's not clear?
        merpnderp 6y ago
        Since you don't seem to get the point, I'll turn it around. How many humans are comfortable causing the deaths of if you could go back in time and make sure no animals were ever domesticated for livestock? Are you comfortable killing a million people? A hundred million? Do you have a maximum?
      - Falling3 6y ago
        Oh I see you were the original commenter as well. Are you disputing the idea that you tried to use the actions of a specific wild animal to justify our treatment of animals? I mean, I get it. It's a really common tactic. I'm just confused by your surprise.
        merpnderp 6y ago
        Why would you think I was the start of this thread, can't you see the usernames? A person said we should never have domesticated animals in the first place because it is cruel. I said that if being cruel to animals to ensure your species survival is wrong, nearly nothing deserves to live. You then took that out of context and made some bizarre assumptions about ethics and hyenas. You were wrong, and I get your confusion. Following these threads is hard. But it's okay.
vegannet 6y ago
This is a funny line that I hear a lot as a vegan and it’s based on a misunderstanding. Veganism is actually quite pragmatic, veganism is not driven by saving lives it is driven by harm reduction. If I thought that the greatest harm reduction outcome for dairy cows could be achieved by a mass cull, I would support it.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

There is the same dilemma for many other animals too. What harm does it do to a chicken if you simply snatch the eggs it was already laying on your property, or shear a sheep that already had locks of wool? Unfortunately the first harm was done by breeding species that ovulate daily or produce so much fur that it would die without human intervention.

mikepurvis 6y ago

My town has a Guernsey farm [1] just outside it, so that milk is available at our local food markets. It's wild how expensive it is. Like, the regular cheapo milk at the grocery store is $4-5 for 4L, and the Eby Manor milk is $5 for 1L, basically four times the cost. Now, they're a small time operation doing a specialty product, so I'm sure that contributes a lot to this cost bump— they justify this mostly by touting health benefits rather than talking about the sustainability of their operation, but I suspect that getting many animal-based food products to a more sustainable place would require a similarly eye-watering bump up in price. Which is, of course, part of the argument for going part-time vegetarian/vegan— get used to the idea of meat and animal products being something we enjoy once or twice a week or a few times a month, rather than multiple times per day. [1]: https://ebymanor.ca/our-family-farm/ https://ebymanor.ca/our-family-farm/

ThrowawayIP 6y ago
Most of that page is dedicated to how "nicely" that farmer treats his herd. But, there are a few omissions. How do they care for cows that are no longer capable of becoming pregnant? [0] How do they control the size of the herd when each cow is giving birth about 3-4 times over a 4-5 year "lifespan?" Even at four times the cost, the industry doesn't look any better. [0]: https://www.agweb.com/article/deciding-when-dairy-cow-starts-her-second-career https://www.agweb.com/article/deciding-when-dairy-cow-starts...