7 ms·

Pakistan’s new regulations aim to ‘silence the internet’

105 points by ryzvonusef 6y ago

ryzvonusef 6y ago
> Farooqi’s ‘crime, for which he was arrested at his home on the evening of September 11, was to have tweeted criticism of the Pakistani government and military, particularly regarding the actions of a religious organization known for inciting violence against the minority Shia Muslim sect. > Last month, the government made public a new expansion to PECA that would outlaw online criticism of the government and public office holders; allow the government to ban online platforms like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube; and require all platforms – including messaging apps like WhatsApp – to share users’ decrypted data with authorities without judicial oversight. > The new regulations require large technology and social media companies to establish offices and data centers on Pakistani soil within 18 months, give the government the power to impose fines of up to $3.14m and allow authorities to block online platforms for violations of government censorship and data surveillance requests. > “We tried to tell them that you cannot blanket ban things,” said a social media company representative with knowledge of one of the meetings, speaking on condition of anonymity. “You need to keep certain principles in mind. You can’t just ban everything that you don’t like.” > The representative said the government ignored all of the social media company’s concerns, particularly those regarding requirements for large companies with more than half a million users, like Facebook, Twitter and others, to establish data servers on Pakistani soil. > One of the core concerns of rights groups and technology companies has been around the requirement for all online platforms in Pakistan to provide decrypted data to law enforcement authorities without a warrant. > The new rules require such companies to provide “any information or data or content or sub-content contained in any information system owned or managed or run by the [company] in decrypted, readable and comprehensible format or plain version”. > The requirement to break encryption could also cripple local technology-driven businesses that require secure communications for financial transactions. > “E-commerce and e-banking will all suffer, because it will make that whole system vulnerable,” says Aziz. “They want gateway level filters that do deep packet inspection.” > The new regulations set a fine of up to $3.14m for companies that fail to comply with any part of the rules, including requirements to accede to government censorship requests within six hours in some cases. > The main areas of concern for rights groups are the clauses of the regulations that deal with banning content based on the “the glory of Islam”, “the integrity, security or defense of Pakistan” or “public order, decency or morality”. > Certain opposition politicians’ speeches are blocked from television news coverage, editors are routinely sent “advice” on how to cover events and coverage critical of the military is commonly muzzled, journalists have told Al Jazeera. > One of the tweets for which Farooqi, the journalist, was arrested included a reference to an article in his newspaper that had been censored by the authorities. The tweet was accused of being “anti-state”. > “The motive [behind my arrest] was clear: to end criticism, and the larger motive is to send a message of deterrence, to show […] that if I can be picked up, then anyone can be picked up.”
bussierem 6y ago
I'm trying to picture what will happen in the two scenarios: 1) Social Media/Messaging apps all give them the finger and stop operating in Pakistan entirely or dealing with them 2) ^^^ try to figure out a way to work with them and actually FOLLOW these completely insane demands, resulting in serious problems for everyone I have to imagine that #1 will have MASSIVE social impacts on Pakistanis -- not having any access to any modern messaging or social media platform would be a huge impact these days, and I wonder whether they would even stand for that...
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  #1 it already happened in China. What else do you think Alibaba, WeChat & Co are after all if not Chinese replacement for Western tech? My guess, since Pakistan is copying the control from China will also copy the replication.
  - swirepe 6y ago
    Pakistan's adult literacy rate[1] is about 60%. China's[2] is about 95%. Pakistan is in trouble if it needs to replace American tech entirely. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/572781/literacy-rate-in-pakistan/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/572781/literacy-rate-in-... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/278568/illiteracy-rate-in-china-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/278568/illiteracy-rate-i...
- swirepe 6y ago
  I played around with Pakistani WhatsApp groups for a while. RE: vulgarity, that's already kinda banned (along with most pornography in Asia). I bet you could get banned if you are reported for hate speech, but I'm not sure what they will/can do about anti-state talk.
notorandit 6y ago
OK. So long. Hear from you at the next revolution on either side.
bovermyer 6y ago
So, Pakistan's government appears to need an... adjustment. Preferably at the hands of Pakistan's citizens.
- nix23 6y ago
  If your real leader is called "Inter-Services Intelligence" your chances are very small to do anything.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    You think those guys use Internet/social media? My grandfather had to give a presentation to army brass (maybe it was FWO) once and they could barely handle PowerPoint.
    - nix23 6y ago
      The ISI is one of the most capable (HUMINT wise) and ruthless Secret Services worldwide.
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        I meant that they have same attitude like that governor of Kashmir right before 370 was revoked who said who needs Internet anyway and probably have strong opinions about misuse from not ever using it unless told to.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        nix23 6y ago
        You are probably right, but using powerpoint correctly in pakistan or even the need for internet is really not relevant for the "ordinary" pakistani, food, medicine and a safe place is.
acqq 6y ago
Meanwhile, in Europe: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252491755/EU-moves-closer-to-encryption-ban-after-Austria-France-attacks https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252491755/EU-moves-close... “EU moves closer to encryption ban after Austria, France attacks” Edit: what I'd like is to raise the awareness that the Western countries also attempt to get there, not just Pakistan.
- nix23 6y ago
  I'm pro banning SUV's: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55148518 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55148518
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Perhaps you are. But why do you think that's relevant to this discussion?
hemantv 6y ago
Does this country can do even one thing right?
- nix23 6y ago
  Yes, destabilizing regions, ICBM's and Secret Service stuff...a bit like the US but on the other side.
- 21heyyou 6y ago
  Does this poster can even learn grammar right?
- swirepe 6y ago
  wtf you just got hacker news banned in Pakistan
selimthegrim 6y ago
How can they criticize India in Kashmir now if this is their alternative on offer? A greenwashed Internet?
- pak1stniprspktv 6y ago
  Well, Kashmir under India has their own problems, more shocking. Nationalist Hindus are angry about a muslim-hindu kiss on Netflix. Meanwhile the government wants to stop inter-religious marriages. https://time.com/5915872/love-jihad-india-democracy/ https://time.com/5915872/love-jihad-india-democracy/ TIME: Laws Against 'Love Jihad' Are Yet Another Serious Attack on India's Once Secular Democracy https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/world/asia/india-netflix-kiss.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/world/asia/india-netflix-... NYTimes: With a Kiss, Netflix Gets Tangled in India’s Religious Tensions
sand_castles 6y ago
If anybody wants more in detail knowledge about the region, especially what is happening in the Banana Republic of Pakistan. NATSECJEFF on twitter is a must follow. https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff His podcast is also great.
- dleslie 6y ago
  I vouched you up if only because I'm a sucker for more feeds of interesting information; even if they are compromised. The twitter link is intriguing, if more than a little questionable. For others: this poster has a rather China-friendly post history and negative overall karma for it. Consider yourselves forewarned. ;)
  - sand_castles 6y ago
    I would say HN is way too anti-China ( due to it's heavy American audience ). I tend to be neutral.
antihero 6y ago
> Amin-ul-Haque, Pakistan’s information technology minister, said the government supported freedom of speech, but would not tolerate certain forms of content. > “The government of Pakistan will not tolerate three things in any form,” he told Al Jazeera. “Hate speech, number one. Number two is anti-state content, and number three is vulgarity.” That is so amazingly blatant, they are not even trying to spin this.
- salamimonger 6y ago
  That's pretty progressive of them, to put hate speech first and front of their priorities. Many of us in the West would love if we did the same. Go Pakistan!
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Of course, who defines hate speech? Even here in the US we're already starting to see attempts by local government to define anti-cop sentiment as "hate speech"; an obvious perversion of the original intent, but a sadly predictable result of leaving such a wide ranging power within easy reach of partisans politics.
  - garg 6y ago
    Hardly progressive - Everything progressive is simply deemed to be vulgar hate speech and then blocked. Don't forget that it's a very conservative country that, in my opinion, would be a Republican utopia if the official religion was christianity instead of Islam.
- disown 6y ago
  > That is so amazingly blatant, they are not even trying to spin this. Their honesty is like a breath of fresh fair. If it was germany/europe or silicon valley, they would have rephrased "anti-state content" as "anti-democracy content". And a bunch of people here would be celebrating and praising it. #1 and #3 is pretty much a copy of HN guidelines or the censorship rules on most social media. Also you got to hand it to aljazeera. They support "silencing the internet" like most news organizations but of course wouldn't accuse themselves or their fellow propaganda organizations of doing so. Their "silencing" is more benign. It's for the good of the people...
2Gkashmiri 6y ago
A few days ago the state government extended the blanket ban on "high speed mobile internet" which has been banned since 5 August 2019 in India administered Kashmir on account of " misuse" all the while acknowledging that this denial on high speed internet" is not having any significant impact on education" among other things. Pakistan is doing the exact same thing. There is no "Pakistan = bad". The reality is more like "India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad ". Everyone is bad. As someone who has suffered financially, emotionally, socially because of this "ban", I can confirm things will not be forgotten and I suppose people affected by these "laws" wont either.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  > India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad One of these things is not like the others (at least in degree).
  - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
    assange would disagree but still
chamanbuga 6y ago
As usual, Pakistan makes another stupid attempt to reel in US technology companies under their control. These attempts aren't coming out of left field, rather are inspired by China, India, Austria, and a few other European powers. As I've told my Pakistani counterparts, this attempt is amusing at the least and ignorable at the worst. They have no merit to make these demands. Of course, technology companies do not want to lose the 85 million customer base, but they realize Pakistan has more to loose than gain by putting a blanket ban on these platforms. They realize any ban would be reversed under public pressure. I'll share what I told Amin-ul-Haque (who doesn't know the difference between right-click and left-click): Pakistan's play should be to determine impact to GDP associated with these platform companies (past, present, & future). It should use that to make a case for these companies to open product-development led offices in Pakistan, not just sales that we have today. Over a span of 10 years, Pakistan needs to gain this knowledge and begin innovating their own products and infrastructure. Eventually, when sufficient infrastructure has been built and cloned over to Pakistan, it should then ban these platform companies and drive traffic through their home-grown solutions. Ultimately, this will allow: 1. Talent to develop and thrive in Pakistan. There's a lot of talent there already, but it's either leaving, working on small problems, or just part of the problem. There is a small pool of incredible research happening there, but unfortunately it is motivated by the need to get out. 2. Increase tax revenue and the technology sector's contribution margin to GDP 3. Output better products that solve Pakistani problems instead of band-aiding US technology to fit into their existing broken ecosystem. I understand this is a controversial opinion. This is most likely not the right path, but the thinking is along the right direction. A lot of people think that the primary motivation is to muzzle free speech. Yes, there are absolutely cases of investigative journalist who have been silenced. But for every 1 case of silencing free speech there are 100s of the fringe right spreading misinformation about religion, government, and foreign powers to the masses there. This problem will not be solved by US technology companies. Solving these problems do not pay bills, they are just decent PR, which again, most of these companies are not interested in since it doesn't impact the bottom line.
- scaleout1 6y ago
  I read your comment but it's not clear to me how what you are suggesting would work practically. My friend and I are bootstrapping a startup that would primarily cater to Pakistan audience. We are hosted on AWS and use Stripe for payment processing etc, like most startups. Even if we wanted to host something in Pakistan (which we don't), no such infrastructure exists and we are in place to hire any dev resources in Pakistan either. Per the article, if you are not hosted in Pakistan, Govt will fine you 3.x, which will probably kill our project, but it's not clear how Pak Govt can find us if we have no presence there?
madhadron 6y ago
Is it possible that they want the social media companies gone? Make completely unreasonable demands based upon your actual importance, and the other side shrugs and walks away.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
the_resistence 6y ago
Freedom of speech but only if you say what we want you to say. Tyrants are all the same the world over.

105 points by ryzvonusef 6y ago

> Farooqi’s ‘crime, for which he was arrested at his home on the evening of September 11, was to have tweeted criticism of the Pakistani government and military, particularly regarding the actions of a religious organization known for inciting violence against the minority Shia Muslim sect. > Last month, the government made public a new expansion to PECA that would outlaw online criticism of the government and public office holders; allow the government to ban online platforms like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube; and require all platforms – including messaging apps like WhatsApp – to share users’ decrypted data with authorities without judicial oversight. > The new regulations require large technology and social media companies to establish offices and data centers on Pakistani soil within 18 months, give the government the power to impose fines of up to $3.14m and allow authorities to block online platforms for violations of government censorship and data surveillance requests. > “We tried to tell them that you cannot blanket ban things,” said a social media company representative with knowledge of one of the meetings, speaking on condition of anonymity. “You need to keep certain principles in mind. You can’t just ban everything that you don’t like.” > The representative said the government ignored all of the social media company’s concerns, particularly those regarding requirements for large companies with more than half a million users, like Facebook, Twitter and others, to establish data servers on Pakistani soil. > One of the core concerns of rights groups and technology companies has been around the requirement for all online platforms in Pakistan to provide decrypted data to law enforcement authorities without a warrant. > The new rules require such companies to provide “any information or data or content or sub-content contained in any information system owned or managed or run by the [company] in decrypted, readable and comprehensible format or plain version”. > The requirement to break encryption could also cripple local technology-driven businesses that require secure communications for financial transactions. > “E-commerce and e-banking will all suffer, because it will make that whole system vulnerable,” says Aziz. “They want gateway level filters that do deep packet inspection.” > The new regulations set a fine of up to $3.14m for companies that fail to comply with any part of the rules, including requirements to accede to government censorship requests within six hours in some cases. > The main areas of concern for rights groups are the clauses of the regulations that deal with banning content based on the “the glory of Islam”, “the integrity, security or defense of Pakistan” or “public order, decency or morality”. > Certain opposition politicians’ speeches are blocked from television news coverage, editors are routinely sent “advice” on how to cover events and coverage critical of the military is commonly muzzled, journalists have told Al Jazeera. > One of the tweets for which Farooqi, the journalist, was arrested included a reference to an article in his newspaper that had been censored by the authorities. The tweet was accused of being “anti-state”. > “The motive [behind my arrest] was clear: to end criticism, and the larger motive is to send a message of deterrence, to show […] that if I can be picked up, then anyone can be picked up.”

bussierem 6y ago

I'm trying to picture what will happen in the two scenarios: 1) Social Media/Messaging apps all give them the finger and stop operating in Pakistan entirely or dealing with them 2) ^^^ try to figure out a way to work with them and actually FOLLOW these completely insane demands, resulting in serious problems for everyone I have to imagine that #1 will have MASSIVE social impacts on Pakistanis -- not having any access to any modern messaging or social media platform would be a huge impact these days, and I wonder whether they would even stand for that...

unnouinceput 6y ago
#1 it already happened in China. What else do you think Alibaba, WeChat & Co are after all if not Chinese replacement for Western tech? My guess, since Pakistan is copying the control from China will also copy the replication.
- swirepe 6y ago
  Pakistan's adult literacy rate[1] is about 60%. China's[2] is about 95%. Pakistan is in trouble if it needs to replace American tech entirely. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/572781/literacy-rate-in-pakistan/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/572781/literacy-rate-in-... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/278568/illiteracy-rate-in-china-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/278568/illiteracy-rate-i...
swirepe 6y ago
I played around with Pakistani WhatsApp groups for a while. RE: vulgarity, that's already kinda banned (along with most pornography in Asia). I bet you could get banned if you are reported for hate speech, but I'm not sure what they will/can do about anti-state talk.

notorandit 6y ago

OK. So long. Hear from you at the next revolution on either side.

bovermyer 6y ago

So, Pakistan's government appears to need an... adjustment. Preferably at the hands of Pakistan's citizens.

nix23 6y ago
If your real leader is called "Inter-Services Intelligence" your chances are very small to do anything.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  You think those guys use Internet/social media? My grandfather had to give a presentation to army brass (maybe it was FWO) once and they could barely handle PowerPoint.
  - nix23 6y ago
    The ISI is one of the most capable (HUMINT wise) and ruthless Secret Services worldwide.
    - selimthegrim 6y ago
      I meant that they have same attitude like that governor of Kashmir right before 370 was revoked who said who needs Internet anyway and probably have strong opinions about misuse from not ever using it unless told to.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - nix23 6y ago
        You are probably right, but using powerpoint correctly in pakistan or even the need for internet is really not relevant for the "ordinary" pakistani, food, medicine and a safe place is.

acqq 6y ago

Meanwhile, in Europe: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252491755/EU-moves-closer-to-encryption-ban-after-Austria-France-attacks https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252491755/EU-moves-close... “EU moves closer to encryption ban after Austria, France attacks” Edit: what I'd like is to raise the awareness that the Western countries also attempt to get there, not just Pakistan.

nix23 6y ago
I'm pro banning SUV's: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55148518 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55148518
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Perhaps you are. But why do you think that's relevant to this discussion?

hemantv 6y ago

Does this country can do even one thing right?

nix23 6y ago
Yes, destabilizing regions, ICBM's and Secret Service stuff...a bit like the US but on the other side.
21heyyou 6y ago
Does this poster can even learn grammar right?
swirepe 6y ago
wtf you just got hacker news banned in Pakistan

selimthegrim 6y ago

How can they criticize India in Kashmir now if this is their alternative on offer? A greenwashed Internet?

pak1stniprspktv 6y ago
Well, Kashmir under India has their own problems, more shocking. Nationalist Hindus are angry about a muslim-hindu kiss on Netflix. Meanwhile the government wants to stop inter-religious marriages. https://time.com/5915872/love-jihad-india-democracy/ https://time.com/5915872/love-jihad-india-democracy/ TIME: Laws Against 'Love Jihad' Are Yet Another Serious Attack on India's Once Secular Democracy https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/world/asia/india-netflix-kiss.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/world/asia/india-netflix-... NYTimes: With a Kiss, Netflix Gets Tangled in India’s Religious Tensions

sand_castles 6y ago

If anybody wants more in detail knowledge about the region, especially what is happening in the Banana Republic of Pakistan. NATSECJEFF on twitter is a must follow. https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff His podcast is also great.

dleslie 6y ago
I vouched you up if only because I'm a sucker for more feeds of interesting information; even if they are compromised. The twitter link is intriguing, if more than a little questionable. For others: this poster has a rather China-friendly post history and negative overall karma for it. Consider yourselves forewarned. ;)
- sand_castles 6y ago
  I would say HN is way too anti-China ( due to it's heavy American audience ). I tend to be neutral.

antihero 6y ago

> Amin-ul-Haque, Pakistan’s information technology minister, said the government supported freedom of speech, but would not tolerate certain forms of content. > “The government of Pakistan will not tolerate three things in any form,” he told Al Jazeera. “Hate speech, number one. Number two is anti-state content, and number three is vulgarity.” That is so amazingly blatant, they are not even trying to spin this.

salamimonger 6y ago
That's pretty progressive of them, to put hate speech first and front of their priorities. Many of us in the West would love if we did the same. Go Pakistan!
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Of course, who defines hate speech? Even here in the US we're already starting to see attempts by local government to define anti-cop sentiment as "hate speech"; an obvious perversion of the original intent, but a sadly predictable result of leaving such a wide ranging power within easy reach of partisans politics.
- garg 6y ago
  Hardly progressive - Everything progressive is simply deemed to be vulgar hate speech and then blocked. Don't forget that it's a very conservative country that, in my opinion, would be a Republican utopia if the official religion was christianity instead of Islam.
disown 6y ago
> That is so amazingly blatant, they are not even trying to spin this. Their honesty is like a breath of fresh fair. If it was germany/europe or silicon valley, they would have rephrased "anti-state content" as "anti-democracy content". And a bunch of people here would be celebrating and praising it. #1 and #3 is pretty much a copy of HN guidelines or the censorship rules on most social media. Also you got to hand it to aljazeera. They support "silencing the internet" like most news organizations but of course wouldn't accuse themselves or their fellow propaganda organizations of doing so. Their "silencing" is more benign. It's for the good of the people...

2Gkashmiri 6y ago

A few days ago the state government extended the blanket ban on "high speed mobile internet" which has been banned since 5 August 2019 in India administered Kashmir on account of " misuse" all the while acknowledging that this denial on high speed internet" is not having any significant impact on education" among other things. Pakistan is doing the exact same thing. There is no "Pakistan = bad". The reality is more like "India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad ". Everyone is bad. As someone who has suffered financially, emotionally, socially because of this "ban", I can confirm things will not be forgotten and I suppose people affected by these "laws" wont either.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
> India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad One of these things is not like the others (at least in degree).
- 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
  assange would disagree but still

chamanbuga 6y ago

As usual, Pakistan makes another stupid attempt to reel in US technology companies under their control. These attempts aren't coming out of left field, rather are inspired by China, India, Austria, and a few other European powers. As I've told my Pakistani counterparts, this attempt is amusing at the least and ignorable at the worst. They have no merit to make these demands. Of course, technology companies do not want to lose the 85 million customer base, but they realize Pakistan has more to loose than gain by putting a blanket ban on these platforms. They realize any ban would be reversed under public pressure. I'll share what I told Amin-ul-Haque (who doesn't know the difference between right-click and left-click): Pakistan's play should be to determine impact to GDP associated with these platform companies (past, present, & future). It should use that to make a case for these companies to open product-development led offices in Pakistan, not just sales that we have today. Over a span of 10 years, Pakistan needs to gain this knowledge and begin innovating their own products and infrastructure. Eventually, when sufficient infrastructure has been built and cloned over to Pakistan, it should then ban these platform companies and drive traffic through their home-grown solutions. Ultimately, this will allow: 1. Talent to develop and thrive in Pakistan. There's a lot of talent there already, but it's either leaving, working on small problems, or just part of the problem. There is a small pool of incredible research happening there, but unfortunately it is motivated by the need to get out. 2. Increase tax revenue and the technology sector's contribution margin to GDP 3. Output better products that solve Pakistani problems instead of band-aiding US technology to fit into their existing broken ecosystem. I understand this is a controversial opinion. This is most likely not the right path, but the thinking is along the right direction. A lot of people think that the primary motivation is to muzzle free speech. Yes, there are absolutely cases of investigative journalist who have been silenced. But for every 1 case of silencing free speech there are 100s of the fringe right spreading misinformation about religion, government, and foreign powers to the masses there. This problem will not be solved by US technology companies. Solving these problems do not pay bills, they are just decent PR, which again, most of these companies are not interested in since it doesn't impact the bottom line.

scaleout1 6y ago
I read your comment but it's not clear to me how what you are suggesting would work practically. My friend and I are bootstrapping a startup that would primarily cater to Pakistan audience. We are hosted on AWS and use Stripe for payment processing etc, like most startups. Even if we wanted to host something in Pakistan (which we don't), no such infrastructure exists and we are in place to hire any dev resources in Pakistan either. Per the article, if you are not hosted in Pakistan, Govt will fine you 3.x, which will probably kill our project, but it's not clear how Pak Govt can find us if we have no presence there?

madhadron 6y ago

Is it possible that they want the social media companies gone? Make completely unreasonable demands based upon your actual importance, and the other side shrugs and walks away.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

the_resistence 6y ago

Freedom of speech but only if you say what we want you to say. Tyrants are all the same the world over.