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I thought your point was that financial downturn leads to diminished public health, which it doesn't (only if you deny people healthcare). I'm not sure masks a

I thought your point was that financial downturn leads to diminished public health, which it doesn't (only if you deny people healthcare). I'm not sure masks are a good example for 'groupthink'. The messaging was inconsistent not because 'all scientists were thinking alike' but because there was a lack of evidence around cotton-based 'community' masks and even medical masks of type II. Sorry I'm pressing you on this. I agree groupthink does exist and is bad, however in the true sciences it's very rare. So would be interested to get an example related to Covid. > For one example, I am shocked that the countries that are incredible coronavirus "success stories" such as Vietnam only occasionally appear in the news. They just went three entire months with zero locally transmitted cases - what can we learn from them? Fully agree with you here. Every country seems to be in their own bubble and rarely look abroad in a deeper manner.

owenversteeg 6y ago
But I'm not talking about some imaginary hypothetical world, I'm talking about the world we live in, where the US healthcare system is what it is. Furthermore, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that financial difficulties can lead to physical health issues, no matter where you live. I live in the Netherlands, a strong social democracy where college is close to free (~$170/month), a healthcare system the American left can only dream of, etc etc. Despite this, my friends and I have been asked about our financial situation by doctors, because that plays a role in your health even here. Not just the huge effects of stress, but also what you eat, how much free time you have, possible risks from your job etc. are all determined by your financial situation. I think masks are a fine example - even far after there seemed to be evidence for their efficacy, many governments said they were not necessary based on advice from local scientists, and as late as September, you would see as few as 1 in 50 people wearing a mask in much of Western Europe. > I agree groupthink does exist and is bad, however in the true sciences it's very rare. Hmm. Most scientists I know are convinced groupthink is a problem in the sciences. One excellent example is particle physics and supersymmetry, which was basically treated as a religion. Some of the brightest minds of the 21st century were behind a theory that wasn't even falsifiable! The hunt to prove supersymmetry has, at this point, easily cost into the multiple _billions_ of dollars. Now, I don't consider it a total waste, but it certainly is a good example of groupthink. There are countless examples out there, but suffice to say scientists are just as human as the rest of us, and prone to groupthink like anyone else.

owenversteeg 6y ago

But I'm not talking about some imaginary hypothetical world, I'm talking about the world we live in, where the US healthcare system is what it is. Furthermore, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that financial difficulties can lead to physical health issues, no matter where you live. I live in the Netherlands, a strong social democracy where college is close to free (~$170/month), a healthcare system the American left can only dream of, etc etc. Despite this, my friends and I have been asked about our financial situation by doctors, because that plays a role in your health even here. Not just the huge effects of stress, but also what you eat, how much free time you have, possible risks from your job etc. are all determined by your financial situation. I think masks are a fine example - even far after there seemed to be evidence for their efficacy, many governments said they were not necessary based on advice from local scientists, and as late as September, you would see as few as 1 in 50 people wearing a mask in much of Western Europe. > I agree groupthink does exist and is bad, however in the true sciences it's very rare. Hmm. Most scientists I know are convinced groupthink is a problem in the sciences. One excellent example is particle physics and supersymmetry, which was basically treated as a religion. Some of the brightest minds of the 21st century were behind a theory that wasn't even falsifiable! The hunt to prove supersymmetry has, at this point, easily cost into the multiple _billions_ of dollars. Now, I don't consider it a total waste, but it certainly is a good example of groupthink. There are countless examples out there, but suffice to say scientists are just as human as the rest of us, and prone to groupthink like anyone else.