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A completely personal rant: I was almost evicted since my landlord wanted to make more money with Airbnb. Before that I've already heard of cases how in touris

A completely personal rant: I was almost evicted since my landlord wanted to make more money with Airbnb. Before that I've already heard of cases how in tourists towns the local poorer population wasn't able to get long term apartments because richer tourists filled them through Airbnb. Airbnb is cancer for the local population in any country that isn't very rich because locals & students then have to commute from further distances. So banning Airbnb would be godsend for the local population of many countries, if you want to make money with renting open a hotel. Obviously there is the argument "I own the apartment so I can do whatever I want". I really have no good counter argument for this as it is true. But all laws are really relative to the culture. This same person could then say "I don't owe the country any taxes because _I_ made the money". So this just goes to show that we "normalize" everything based on laws. For the greater good of the local population in poorer countries Airbnb should be banned.

onemiketwelve 6y ago
The thing that sucks is that a lot of the publicised grievances are always with the demand side, and never the supply aka the home owners. Since they are richer or something, denying them side income or filling an empty room that would otherwise go unused is supposed to be a loss they should stomach, not to mention the savings/ better experience for the renter who doesn't want a hotel experience. And yes, there are lots of serial property owners who run lots of homes on Airbnb but I really don't think regulation can be nuanced enough, at least what's been proposed.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  > Since they are richer or something, denying them side income or filling an empty room that would otherwise go unused is supposed to be a loss they should stomach Quite simply, yes. If this were all it was, nobody would have a problem. The issue is short-term rentals taking over reliable lease stock. Landlords can make more money with less downside renting out one weekend a month than an entire month, so why wouldn't they? So rental properties simply vanish from the market at key price points. If everyone had a home that they owned, I would not have a problem with airbnb. But this is not the case, and we have no intention of making this the case, so as long as we have obligatory renters, we can't have this incentive.
bawolff 6y ago
Personally i'd rather there just be more housing so the market can balance out. Like in theory, all things being equal, long term rentals should be much better for the landlord. You don't have to worry about vaccines in the downtime, you dont have to clean/etc between tenants, you have less regulatory concerns (in theory), long term tenants have incentive to be respectful to neighbours and not destroy the place. But there is just more demand for short term. Personally i would rather there was just more housing in general (maybe that's naive). There are definitely some nice things about staying in an airbnb other than costs - having a full kitchen, having a bit more "room" [especially if travelling in a group], usually being in an area near things like grocery stores and less near generic tourism BS.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > Personally i'd rather there just be more housing so the market can balance out. to build houses there is a need for a underlying infrastructure (roads, electric grids, gaz pipes, whatever...). Who's going to pay for all that when often existing ones are barely maintained? Now cities could have more skyscrappers to house more people as well... but there is a lot of NIMBY involved as well, it's a complex subject. I'm not opposed to Airbnb as long as they are subject to the exact same standards and laws as hotels, in dedicated buildings for instance. Obviously, very little hosts would want that. Airbnb'ing an appartement can drastically affect the quality of life for neighbors as well.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    > Who's going to pay for all that Taxpayers! That is what a government is for after all. To be clear, i think airbnbs should be subject to appropriate taxes in order to pay their share of that sort of thing. I'm also not sure why this would be such an issue with airbnb relative to normal long term rentals. Its not like an airbnb uses roads & electric grids differently than a normal tenant. > I'm not opposed to Airbnb as long as they are subject to the exact same standards and laws as hotels Why not the same standard as BnB's or traditional short term rentals of small dwellings? Its not like hotels have ever had a monopoly on short term rentals to tourists.
  - 6y ago
esc_colon_q 6y ago
If other people want to pay more for your place, why should that place's owner be forced to let you pay less than they could make with someone else? Seriously. What is better about you, other than that it is you? "Long-term is better for the community" may be an argument that I can get behind re: a tax, but that's not worth very much at all. Maybe a couple hundred a month in a good location? Less in a poor one. They do own the fuckin apartment. They should be able to do whatever they want with it, within reason. Go pound dirt may be right.
- usrusr 6y ago
  That's assuming that property rights are absolute. Maybe that is the case in your country, but that's definitely not true everywhere. And it's not just countries that might have a hint of socialist nuance: even the USA wouldn't accept if you buy a ranch and then declare that on this property only the laws of the PRC apply (or that you declare it part of the UK). There are limits to what ownership allows you to do and those limits are very much subject to legislation.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Owning real estate on this finite planet is a privilege granted by the community, not an inaliaenable human right.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Living next to an Airbnb sucks. In certain cases, our laws put the good of the community ahead of an individual's potential profits.
- x87678r 6y ago
  > They do own the fuckin apartment. They should be able to do whatever they want with it I live in a condo building where there is a HOA rule where leases of less than 12 months are forbidden. I'd never live in a building where AirBnBs were allowed. Similarly cities can ban or severely regulate short term leases if they want.
0x262d 6y ago
Yeah, it turns out that property rights come into conflict with human rights a lot, and this is why property rights should not be fundamental. The people in responses saying owners "should" be able to do anything with stuff they own - well, the owners of property certainly think so. What about the majority of the population? I expect people's opinions about this will change rapidly, in a radical left direction, when the COVID eviction and foreclosure wave hits the US.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Alternatively, the problem with property rights is that some humans don't have property, not that some humans do have property.
  - 0x262d 6y ago
    The resolute defenders of property rights would argue that this infringes on the rights of those who already own the things including virtually all land. But there are other issues with this like the massive, inescapable trend towards centralization of ownership under capitalism.
  - black_puppydog 6y ago
    Humans not having property seems to be the premise on which this whole society is built. Why else wod people work at eg Walmart? Because they really like greeting people and stacking shelves?
  - rocqua 6y ago
    A big issue with property rights is that one person using their property can harm other users indirectly. As such, it makes a lot of sense to curb property rights.
- fergie 6y ago
  I have a good friend who is a Law Professor and we had a pub conversation about the concept of "property ownership" a few years ago. It was really mind blowing- I had never really thought about how abstract the notion of property ownership actually is, especially when you factor in inheritance. We should definitely be more critical of political systems that seek to justify concentrating property in the hands of the few.
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
If you think of it as a You vs Landlord negotiation, indeed, the landlord is permitted to do whatever he wants such as not renting to you because he has a better offer elsewhere. If you think of it as Society vs Landlord, there are many reasons that Society can give to justify preventing the Landlord from Airbnbing. Such as, society has a duty to provide housing to locals, airbnb guests make residential areas more dangerous, dirtier and noisier, other standard reasons why businesses are not permitted in residential areas. If these reasons trump the positive impact on the region from encouraging tourism, then, regulating airbnb makes sense.
jraby3 6y ago
I think it’s more complicated than that. While it does lead to higher rents, it also leads to more visitors and tourists who spend more at local establishments. Those places hire local people. So there is an argument to be made that it helps with jobs, higher pay, and retail establishments in the area as well.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  How much greater the tourist spending is versus the spending from locals? Which were displaced. As those displaced locals won't be spending money any more at local businesses.
- someelephant 6y ago
  This does appear to be a good argument on face however it's not guaranteed that tourists do in fact spend more at local establishments. Furthermore, is an economy boosted by tourism stronger or are there just a lot of low wage jobs available? These kinds of questions should be answered by rigorous study not economists or travel lobbyists.
hamandcheese 6y ago
> Obviously there is the argument "I own the apartment so I can do whatever I want" I mean, zoning is a thing, right?
arcosdev 6y ago
Even though I've used Airbnb. I have to agree with you.

onemiketwelve 6y ago

The thing that sucks is that a lot of the publicised grievances are always with the demand side, and never the supply aka the home owners. Since they are richer or something, denying them side income or filling an empty room that would otherwise go unused is supposed to be a loss they should stomach, not to mention the savings/ better experience for the renter who doesn't want a hotel experience. And yes, there are lots of serial property owners who run lots of homes on Airbnb but I really don't think regulation can be nuanced enough, at least what's been proposed.

freeone3000 6y ago
> Since they are richer or something, denying them side income or filling an empty room that would otherwise go unused is supposed to be a loss they should stomach Quite simply, yes. If this were all it was, nobody would have a problem. The issue is short-term rentals taking over reliable lease stock. Landlords can make more money with less downside renting out one weekend a month than an entire month, so why wouldn't they? So rental properties simply vanish from the market at key price points. If everyone had a home that they owned, I would not have a problem with airbnb. But this is not the case, and we have no intention of making this the case, so as long as we have obligatory renters, we can't have this incentive.

bawolff 6y ago

Personally i'd rather there just be more housing so the market can balance out. Like in theory, all things being equal, long term rentals should be much better for the landlord. You don't have to worry about vaccines in the downtime, you dont have to clean/etc between tenants, you have less regulatory concerns (in theory), long term tenants have incentive to be respectful to neighbours and not destroy the place. But there is just more demand for short term. Personally i would rather there was just more housing in general (maybe that's naive). There are definitely some nice things about staying in an airbnb other than costs - having a full kitchen, having a bit more "room" [especially if travelling in a group], usually being in an area near things like grocery stores and less near generic tourism BS.

throw_m239339 6y ago
> Personally i'd rather there just be more housing so the market can balance out. to build houses there is a need for a underlying infrastructure (roads, electric grids, gaz pipes, whatever...). Who's going to pay for all that when often existing ones are barely maintained? Now cities could have more skyscrappers to house more people as well... but there is a lot of NIMBY involved as well, it's a complex subject. I'm not opposed to Airbnb as long as they are subject to the exact same standards and laws as hotels, in dedicated buildings for instance. Obviously, very little hosts would want that. Airbnb'ing an appartement can drastically affect the quality of life for neighbors as well.
- bawolff 6y ago
  > Who's going to pay for all that Taxpayers! That is what a government is for after all. To be clear, i think airbnbs should be subject to appropriate taxes in order to pay their share of that sort of thing. I'm also not sure why this would be such an issue with airbnb relative to normal long term rentals. Its not like an airbnb uses roads & electric grids differently than a normal tenant. > I'm not opposed to Airbnb as long as they are subject to the exact same standards and laws as hotels Why not the same standard as BnB's or traditional short term rentals of small dwellings? Its not like hotels have ever had a monopoly on short term rentals to tourists.
- 6y ago

esc_colon_q 6y ago

If other people want to pay more for your place, why should that place's owner be forced to let you pay less than they could make with someone else? Seriously. What is better about you, other than that it is you? "Long-term is better for the community" may be an argument that I can get behind re: a tax, but that's not worth very much at all. Maybe a couple hundred a month in a good location? Less in a poor one. They do own the fuckin apartment. They should be able to do whatever they want with it, within reason. Go pound dirt may be right.

usrusr 6y ago
That's assuming that property rights are absolute. Maybe that is the case in your country, but that's definitely not true everywhere. And it's not just countries that might have a hint of socialist nuance: even the USA wouldn't accept if you buy a ranch and then declare that on this property only the laws of the PRC apply (or that you declare it part of the UK). There are limits to what ownership allows you to do and those limits are very much subject to legislation.
srtjstjsj 6y ago
Owning real estate on this finite planet is a privilege granted by the community, not an inaliaenable human right.
Rebelgecko 6y ago
Living next to an Airbnb sucks. In certain cases, our laws put the good of the community ahead of an individual's potential profits.
x87678r 6y ago
> They do own the fuckin apartment. They should be able to do whatever they want with it I live in a condo building where there is a HOA rule where leases of less than 12 months are forbidden. I'd never live in a building where AirBnBs were allowed. Similarly cities can ban or severely regulate short term leases if they want.

0x262d 6y ago

Yeah, it turns out that property rights come into conflict with human rights a lot, and this is why property rights should not be fundamental. The people in responses saying owners "should" be able to do anything with stuff they own - well, the owners of property certainly think so. What about the majority of the population? I expect people's opinions about this will change rapidly, in a radical left direction, when the COVID eviction and foreclosure wave hits the US.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
Alternatively, the problem with property rights is that some humans don't have property, not that some humans do have property.
- 0x262d 6y ago
  The resolute defenders of property rights would argue that this infringes on the rights of those who already own the things including virtually all land. But there are other issues with this like the massive, inescapable trend towards centralization of ownership under capitalism.
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  Humans not having property seems to be the premise on which this whole society is built. Why else wod people work at eg Walmart? Because they really like greeting people and stacking shelves?
- rocqua 6y ago
  A big issue with property rights is that one person using their property can harm other users indirectly. As such, it makes a lot of sense to curb property rights.
fergie 6y ago
I have a good friend who is a Law Professor and we had a pub conversation about the concept of "property ownership" a few years ago. It was really mind blowing- I had never really thought about how abstract the notion of property ownership actually is, especially when you factor in inheritance. We should definitely be more critical of political systems that seek to justify concentrating property in the hands of the few.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

If you think of it as a You vs Landlord negotiation, indeed, the landlord is permitted to do whatever he wants such as not renting to you because he has a better offer elsewhere. If you think of it as Society vs Landlord, there are many reasons that Society can give to justify preventing the Landlord from Airbnbing. Such as, society has a duty to provide housing to locals, airbnb guests make residential areas more dangerous, dirtier and noisier, other standard reasons why businesses are not permitted in residential areas. If these reasons trump the positive impact on the region from encouraging tourism, then, regulating airbnb makes sense.

jraby3 6y ago

I think it’s more complicated than that. While it does lead to higher rents, it also leads to more visitors and tourists who spend more at local establishments. Those places hire local people. So there is an argument to be made that it helps with jobs, higher pay, and retail establishments in the area as well.

Ekaros 6y ago
How much greater the tourist spending is versus the spending from locals? Which were displaced. As those displaced locals won't be spending money any more at local businesses.
someelephant 6y ago
This does appear to be a good argument on face however it's not guaranteed that tourists do in fact spend more at local establishments. Furthermore, is an economy boosted by tourism stronger or are there just a lot of low wage jobs available? These kinds of questions should be answered by rigorous study not economists or travel lobbyists.

hamandcheese 6y ago

> Obviously there is the argument "I own the apartment so I can do whatever I want" I mean, zoning is a thing, right?

arcosdev 6y ago

Even though I've used Airbnb. I have to agree with you.