4 ms·

Haha, it reminds me a bit of Microsoft Account, MSA, Windows Live ID, Microsoft Passport, .NET Passport, and Microsoft Passport Network.

by Nition 6y ago

WorldMaker 6y ago
Does it? It's not a good comparison. All of those are brand names for a product still offered with continuity of teams between them and while some of the brand names signaled breaks in compatibility for developers using the services, it was still ostensibly the same product. Whereas most of these Google projects were ostensibly entirely different teams with different project goals building externally similar projects because of internal politics. It's also interesting to note that most of those backwards compatibility breaks in developer APIs in the Microsoft product mentioned have occurred as Microsoft has adapted to changes in (security) standards over the years, from entirely proprietary system, through custom extensions of WS-* and SAML standards, to today's OpenID Connect-based system. It's a very stark contrast to Google's messaging apps which started with the (XMPP) standards-based Google Chat and each subsequent product has been more proprietary, more of a walled garden, and less interoperable with other products.
- jsnell 6y ago
  So for a 1:1 comparison, let's consider the apps that MS has made in this space over the years. Ignoring the semi-annual rebrands and the MS chat products that were killed from before Google even existed (there's surprisingly many!), there's at least: 1. MSN Messenger (+ rebrands) 2. Skype 3. NetMeeting 4. Lync (+ rebrands) 5. Yammer 6. Kaizala 7. Teams 8. SharedView 9. Windows Meeting Space 10. Groove 11. Qik I tried to err on the side of assuming that any time they killed one product and immediately replaced it with another, it was a rebrand. (E.g. were Office Communicator / Office Live Meeting / Lync / Skype for Business actually compatible? If not, they clearly weren't just rebrands.) Overall this seems like a very similar amount of churn, product overlap, and politics-driven product management.
  - Nition 6y ago
    I want to see a whole organisation on Microsoft Comic Chat.
    - jsnell 6y ago
      Would it be better or worse than doing it on Microsoft V-Chat?
    - giancarlostoro 6y ago
      Well it is just an IRC client that spams garbage other IRC clients ignore.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    Skype, Qik, Yammer, and Groove were all acquisitions. (None of Google's messenger churn has the excuse of being an acquisition.) Yammer is a social network and if Yammer counts for Microsoft as a "chat app" then Google gets to add Buzz, Reader, Orkut, G+, Wave, etc to the list. Groove wasn't exactly a chat app either. It was more the P2P bastard child of Lotus Notes (or a P2P relative of SharePoint, sort of, in Microsoft terms). Chat was a feature, but it wasn't the emphasis of the app, the emphasis was more on shared workspaces (folders, documents). Some ideas that have resurfaced elsewhere in O365 and even Teams, though not in the P2P way without big cloud internet services that Groove attempted. Windows Meeting Space was the last rebrand of NetMeeting, apparently. There's also evidence according to Wikipedia that SharedView piggy backed on the Windows Meeting Space codebase and in some ways was a "trial version" of Windows Meeting Space with different internet services backing it and paid for by ads. Kaizala is in the process of merging into Teams, and the Lync line (last Skype for Business) is considered to have already merged/migrated. (Except for support of on premises installs which still has a few more years on the clock. Another contrast to Google who has never supported on premises installs, much less for years after the projects died/moved on.) Qik was a Skype off-shoot/relative.
    - jsnell 6y ago
      > Yammer is a social network and if Yammer counts for Microsoft as a "chat app" then Google gets to add Buzz, Reader, Orkut, G+, Wave, etc to the list. The list of supposed Google chat apps up the thread did in fact include both Buzz and Wave, so I'm just applying the same criteria. Hangouts was the chat part of G+, so I think it'd be double counting to include G+. > Groove wasn't exactly a chat app either Neither are Duo and Meet, which were in the list of supposed Google chat apps. > Kaizala is in the process of merging into Teams, and the Lync line (last Skype for Business) is considered to have already merged/migrated I don't understand. The entire thing we're supposed to be mocking Google for here is that they launch chat apps, and then force users to migrate away. Now you're saying that all these Microsoft ones don't count, because they've either already killed them and forced a migration, or are already in the process of doing so. > Skype, Qik, Yammer, and Groove were all acquisitions. (None of Google's messenger churn has the excuse of being an acquisition.) Fair enough that this is different. But first, note that when Google discontinues a product they got from an acquisition, HN does not consider that to be an exenuating circumstance. I think it's fair to apply the same policy here. And second, nobody forced Microsoft to buy Skype when they already had a popular app doing just the same thing, which they then killed to make room for Skype.
ukyrgf 6y ago
There was also MSN, and then on the side there was your Xbox Live account and your Games for Windows Live account. I think mine have all been merged at this point, but people at my job still click on the "work" account when they really want their personal (we don't use 365) and are confused when their account is empty.

Haha, it reminds me a bit of Microsoft Account, MSA, Windows Live ID, Microsoft Passport, .NET Passport, and Microsoft Passport Network.

by Nition 6y ago

Haha, it reminds me a bit of Microsoft Account, MSA, Windows Live ID, Microsoft Passport, .NET Passport, and Microsoft Passport Network.

WorldMaker 6y ago

Does it? It's not a good comparison. All of those are brand names for a product still offered with continuity of teams between them and while some of the brand names signaled breaks in compatibility for developers using the services, it was still ostensibly the same product. Whereas most of these Google projects were ostensibly entirely different teams with different project goals building externally similar projects because of internal politics. It's also interesting to note that most of those backwards compatibility breaks in developer APIs in the Microsoft product mentioned have occurred as Microsoft has adapted to changes in (security) standards over the years, from entirely proprietary system, through custom extensions of WS-* and SAML standards, to today's OpenID Connect-based system. It's a very stark contrast to Google's messaging apps which started with the (XMPP) standards-based Google Chat and each subsequent product has been more proprietary, more of a walled garden, and less interoperable with other products.

jsnell 6y ago
So for a 1:1 comparison, let's consider the apps that MS has made in this space over the years. Ignoring the semi-annual rebrands and the MS chat products that were killed from before Google even existed (there's surprisingly many!), there's at least: 1. MSN Messenger (+ rebrands) 2. Skype 3. NetMeeting 4. Lync (+ rebrands) 5. Yammer 6. Kaizala 7. Teams 8. SharedView 9. Windows Meeting Space 10. Groove 11. Qik I tried to err on the side of assuming that any time they killed one product and immediately replaced it with another, it was a rebrand. (E.g. were Office Communicator / Office Live Meeting / Lync / Skype for Business actually compatible? If not, they clearly weren't just rebrands.) Overall this seems like a very similar amount of churn, product overlap, and politics-driven product management.
- Nition 6y ago
  I want to see a whole organisation on Microsoft Comic Chat.
  - jsnell 6y ago
    Would it be better or worse than doing it on Microsoft V-Chat?
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    Well it is just an IRC client that spams garbage other IRC clients ignore.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  Skype, Qik, Yammer, and Groove were all acquisitions. (None of Google's messenger churn has the excuse of being an acquisition.) Yammer is a social network and if Yammer counts for Microsoft as a "chat app" then Google gets to add Buzz, Reader, Orkut, G+, Wave, etc to the list. Groove wasn't exactly a chat app either. It was more the P2P bastard child of Lotus Notes (or a P2P relative of SharePoint, sort of, in Microsoft terms). Chat was a feature, but it wasn't the emphasis of the app, the emphasis was more on shared workspaces (folders, documents). Some ideas that have resurfaced elsewhere in O365 and even Teams, though not in the P2P way without big cloud internet services that Groove attempted. Windows Meeting Space was the last rebrand of NetMeeting, apparently. There's also evidence according to Wikipedia that SharedView piggy backed on the Windows Meeting Space codebase and in some ways was a "trial version" of Windows Meeting Space with different internet services backing it and paid for by ads. Kaizala is in the process of merging into Teams, and the Lync line (last Skype for Business) is considered to have already merged/migrated. (Except for support of on premises installs which still has a few more years on the clock. Another contrast to Google who has never supported on premises installs, much less for years after the projects died/moved on.) Qik was a Skype off-shoot/relative.
  - jsnell 6y ago
    > Yammer is a social network and if Yammer counts for Microsoft as a "chat app" then Google gets to add Buzz, Reader, Orkut, G+, Wave, etc to the list. The list of supposed Google chat apps up the thread did in fact include both Buzz and Wave, so I'm just applying the same criteria. Hangouts was the chat part of G+, so I think it'd be double counting to include G+. > Groove wasn't exactly a chat app either Neither are Duo and Meet, which were in the list of supposed Google chat apps. > Kaizala is in the process of merging into Teams, and the Lync line (last Skype for Business) is considered to have already merged/migrated I don't understand. The entire thing we're supposed to be mocking Google for here is that they launch chat apps, and then force users to migrate away. Now you're saying that all these Microsoft ones don't count, because they've either already killed them and forced a migration, or are already in the process of doing so. > Skype, Qik, Yammer, and Groove were all acquisitions. (None of Google's messenger churn has the excuse of being an acquisition.) Fair enough that this is different. But first, note that when Google discontinues a product they got from an acquisition, HN does not consider that to be an exenuating circumstance. I think it's fair to apply the same policy here. And second, nobody forced Microsoft to buy Skype when they already had a popular app doing just the same thing, which they then killed to make room for Skype.

ukyrgf 6y ago

There was also MSN, and then on the side there was your Xbox Live account and your Games for Windows Live account. I think mine have all been merged at this point, but people at my job still click on the "work" account when they really want their personal (we don't use 365) and are confused when their account is empty.