5 ms·

Red Star (novel)

49 points by benbreen 6y ago

sgt101 6y ago
A similar project - but much later : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed
- myates 6y ago
  One of my favourite novels, highly recommended.
- gumby 6y ago
  BTW the working title of that book was “An Ambiguous Utopia” which I’ve always liked (though the lovely pun of “The Dispossessed” makes a better book title).
momentoftop 6y ago
One thing I found interesting about the novel was that the depicted Martian utopia is just as growth hungry as contemporary capitalism. [spoiler warning] The premise, in fact, is that Mars has consumed its major resources, and now needs to colonise either Venus or Earth in order to survive. The latter option possibly involves exterminating all Earthlings. I've come across claims that communism is a solution to capitalism's unsustainable growth demands, and it was fun reading a major Russian revolutionary imagining his communist utopia with the very same demands.
- codeulike 6y ago
  Its a weird element in the story, that the utopia wants to eradicate the human race, it doesn't usually go that way in utopian novels. Makes me wonder if there is some subtle satire going on. As if the novel is predicting something like the Great Purge under Stalin? I havent read the novel.
  - cesis 6y ago
    The novel is from 1908. That's before Russian Revolution.
    - codeulike 6y ago
      I know, but only a decade before. The idea of revolution was around. E.g. the plot synopsis for the novel on wikipedia says "Leonid, the narrator and protagonist of the story, is a Bolshevik revolutionary and mathematician living in St. Petersburg."
    - ra88it 6y ago
      There was more than one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Russian_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Russian_Revolution
- sirodoht 6y ago
  That's a very interesting remark. There is criticism against both communism and capitalism for exactly this notion: that history progresses only with material advancement [1]. For example, one is by Cornelius Castoriadis [2] (fan of communism until he assigned this very notion of endless material growth as core of its shortcomings) and another by Erich Fromm, where in "To Have or to Be" [3] he talks about similar ideas. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Castoriadis#The_imaginary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Castoriadis#The_imag... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Have_or_to_Be%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Have_or_to_Be%3F
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    On the other hand, and I think more recently, Sean Sayers has gone against this conception of Marx that he proposed a 'productivist' ideology or conception of communist society[0], for which Marx is still (mistakenly, in my opinion) criticized, especially by environmentalists and eco-socialists. The special focus on a narrow, technical meaning of the 'forces of production' used in describing hi torical materialism has also been called into question. Marx may have been an 'economic determinist' (this is less controversial but still worth discussing) but he certainly wasn't a 'technological determinist'. [0] https://philpapers.org/rec/SAYTCO https://philpapers.org/rec/SAYTCO
mprovost 6y ago
I only just realised that the character Arkady Bogdanov in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy was named after this author!
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  A reddit commenter says «Yes, it is explicitly noted in the text and references "Arkady's famous ancestor" who helped pioneer blood transfusions.» https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/c86j5x/is_ksrs_arkady_bogdanov_from_red_mars_a_nod_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/c86j5x/is_ksrs_ark... One of my favorite books, and others by KSR are some of my others!
jrochkind1 6y ago
While pretty different, this reminds me of the more recent _Vagabonds_ by Chinese author Hao Jingfang, translated to English by Ken Liu. I highly recommend it. I haven't read Red Star, so can't totally compare. But Vabagonds is also about "different society on Mars what does it have to teach Earth", also by someone from an (ostensibly) communist society... but from a 21st century author of course, and Vagabonds is not propaganda for a particular singular vision, but more philosophical investigation of alternatives and variations and what can be changed and what ends up the same anyway, social as well as personal.
avmich 6y ago
Red Star, in Russian: http://www.lib.ru/RUFANT/BOGDANOW/red_star.txt http://www.lib.ru/RUFANT/BOGDANOW/red_star.txt

49 points by benbreen 6y ago

A similar project - but much later : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed

myates 6y ago
One of my favourite novels, highly recommended.
gumby 6y ago
BTW the working title of that book was “An Ambiguous Utopia” which I’ve always liked (though the lovely pun of “The Dispossessed” makes a better book title).

momentoftop 6y ago

One thing I found interesting about the novel was that the depicted Martian utopia is just as growth hungry as contemporary capitalism. [spoiler warning] The premise, in fact, is that Mars has consumed its major resources, and now needs to colonise either Venus or Earth in order to survive. The latter option possibly involves exterminating all Earthlings. I've come across claims that communism is a solution to capitalism's unsustainable growth demands, and it was fun reading a major Russian revolutionary imagining his communist utopia with the very same demands.

codeulike 6y ago
Its a weird element in the story, that the utopia wants to eradicate the human race, it doesn't usually go that way in utopian novels. Makes me wonder if there is some subtle satire going on. As if the novel is predicting something like the Great Purge under Stalin? I havent read the novel.
- cesis 6y ago
  The novel is from 1908. That's before Russian Revolution.
  - codeulike 6y ago
    I know, but only a decade before. The idea of revolution was around. E.g. the plot synopsis for the novel on wikipedia says "Leonid, the narrator and protagonist of the story, is a Bolshevik revolutionary and mathematician living in St. Petersburg."
  - ra88it 6y ago
    There was more than one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Russian_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Russian_Revolution
sirodoht 6y ago
That's a very interesting remark. There is criticism against both communism and capitalism for exactly this notion: that history progresses only with material advancement [1]. For example, one is by Cornelius Castoriadis [2] (fan of communism until he assigned this very notion of endless material growth as core of its shortcomings) and another by Erich Fromm, where in "To Have or to Be" [3] he talks about similar ideas. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Castoriadis#The_imaginary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Castoriadis#The_imag... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Have_or_to_Be%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Have_or_to_Be%3F
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  On the other hand, and I think more recently, Sean Sayers has gone against this conception of Marx that he proposed a 'productivist' ideology or conception of communist society[0], for which Marx is still (mistakenly, in my opinion) criticized, especially by environmentalists and eco-socialists. The special focus on a narrow, technical meaning of the 'forces of production' used in describing hi torical materialism has also been called into question. Marx may have been an 'economic determinist' (this is less controversial but still worth discussing) but he certainly wasn't a 'technological determinist'. [0] https://philpapers.org/rec/SAYTCO https://philpapers.org/rec/SAYTCO

mprovost 6y ago

I only just realised that the character Arkady Bogdanov in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy was named after this author!

jrochkind1 6y ago
A reddit commenter says «Yes, it is explicitly noted in the text and references "Arkady's famous ancestor" who helped pioneer blood transfusions.» https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/c86j5x/is_ksrs_arkady_bogdanov_from_red_mars_a_nod_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/c86j5x/is_ksrs_ark... One of my favorite books, and others by KSR are some of my others!

jrochkind1 6y ago

While pretty different, this reminds me of the more recent _Vagabonds_ by Chinese author Hao Jingfang, translated to English by Ken Liu. I highly recommend it. I haven't read Red Star, so can't totally compare. But Vabagonds is also about "different society on Mars what does it have to teach Earth", also by someone from an (ostensibly) communist society... but from a 21st century author of course, and Vagabonds is not propaganda for a particular singular vision, but more philosophical investigation of alternatives and variations and what can be changed and what ends up the same anyway, social as well as personal.

avmich 6y ago

Red Star, in Russian: http://www.lib.ru/RUFANT/BOGDANOW/red_star.txt http://www.lib.ru/RUFANT/BOGDANOW/red_star.txt