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Interesting that they didn't really touch on what I consider the hardest part of buying for someone: domain expertise. If I am known as 'into' something, then

by Afton 6y ago

Interesting that they didn't really touch on what I consider the hardest part of buying for someone: domain expertise. If I am known as 'into' something, then the likelihood that someone who isn't also into that same thing will come up with a good gift is shockingly low. I bake bread, for example. A book of 100 bread recipes is basically dead weight to me. I have a friend who is really into knives of various sorts. Even though I'm happy to drop a couple of hundred dollars on a gift (they've been super generous to me in the past), I'm not able to pull the trigger because I feel like the facebook-ad-quality-knives are almost certainly not what they would value. Although... I suppose the point of the article on this point is that if I just asked my friend, they would receive the value of the gift (since I would just be proxying the purchase for my friend, and gifting them the cash). So my refusal to do so is just me maximizing for my own selfish gift-giving goals. Interesting.

deleted 6y ago
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bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
Your post really struck a chord with me because I'm the type of person that likes to give books as a gift. As the type of person that would totally give a book of 100 bread recipes to someone that I just know "bakes bread," I'm wondering if you think there are book gifts that someone could get you using that mindset and just a little more thinking about depth of domains. One doesn't need to know anything about baking bread to know that a recipe compilation book is a beginner gift and not something you'd give to someone who has any sort of domain expertise. Similar to how I'm not giving any of my SE friends the Computer Science for Dummies book. I guess what I'm trying to ask is... would a book about baking that isn't basic be a better gift? Even if it isn't particularly something you would have gotten yourself. Examples off the top of my head include a biography about a famous or obscure baker, an in depth book about the science behind baking, a hyper focused book about history of baking techniques, etc. Maybe trying to gain some domain expertise in something your potential gift receiver is interested in - in order to give a better gift - is a gift in itself? Here's a quick way you can get some functional domain expertise in knives to give a better gift to your knife friend (if you want). Depending on if they're into knives as collectibles or for use, I'd suggest finding out which brand(s) your friend favors and then picking up a used knife in a discontinued model from that brand on ebay. Worst case scenario they have it already but even then I bet they'd still value the gift.
- busterarm 6y ago
  My intuition would be to not give a book on baking bread, but on something tangential to bread baking... like a book on brewing or other kinds of fermentation! Something that connects with their expertise but is new to both of you. If somebody is into knives, maybe gift a course on blacksmithing or some japanese whetstones.
  - yarcob 6y ago
    As a recipient of a blacksmithing course I'd like to say it was one of the best gifts I ever got. But it's a pretty expensive gift. But I've also been given knives a few times, and I loved most of them. It's not like you can have too many knives. I'm not sure what I'd do with an extra set of whetstones though.
    - kd0amg 6y ago
      I've been blacksmithing long enough to have arguably too many knives.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > or some japanese whetstones I bought a set of diamond sharpening plates this summer after having had a cheap Arkansas stone for several years. Night and day difference. I can actually get things sharp quickly and consistently now. Since we're on the topic of gifts, if someone out there is thinking of a sharpening setup as a gift, can't recommend diamond plates highly enough. I bought a 300 / 600 / 1200 grit set off Amazon for I think $100
    - mauvehaus 6y ago
      A good coarse stone makes all the difference. I have a 220/320 grit diamond plate for flattening my water stones, but it does wonders for making sharpening knives non-onerous. Woodworkers might be interested in the Norton water stone starter set of 2 combo stones 220/1000 and 4000/8000. The 220 wears out of flat so quickly it's useless, but I have the diamond plate anyhow. The 1000 and 8000 are great. The 4000 is a little soft, and you'll replace it before the others. Personally, I'll be replacing it with the Shapton equivalent in another year or two.
ebg13 6y ago
I have this problem often. I want very few things, I can easily afford everything I want, and the things I might want fall into two categories: 1. I already know the most about the thing and have already found the one that either maximizes the utility/price relationship or maximizes utility below my price sensitivity threshold. 2. I don't know the most about the thing yet and have therefore not decided what I want. The problem with the first is obvious: I either already own the thing or am about to, so the gift becomes just a cash transfer, and I don't need or want cash transfers from my friends. The problem with the second is less obvious until you know that I dislike owning things and only choose to own things when they meet the first category. So what's the answer for people with enough money and interest to buy good things for themselves? Don't buy them utility gifts if you aren't more passionate than they are. Buy them only weird sentimental things and quirky consumables that don't have to meet a personalized utility threshold. A small piece of artwork that comes with a note saying "This made me think of you" carries sentimental value and will make the receiver think of giver every time they look at it. A weird chocolate with ants inside will be weird and fun and it won't matter if it isn't the best weird chocolate with ants inside.
- nicbou 6y ago
  The sweet spot is consumables that will improve their life, but that they don't feel like spending money on. Let them indulge in quality food, candles, wine, clothes, tools, etc.
- robocat 6y ago
  > Buy them only weird sentimental things ... A small piece of artwork that comes with a note saying "This made me think of you" carries sentimental value It is incredibly hard to do this without giving someone a burden. The recipient often feels an obligation to keep obviously sentimental gifts, even if they hate them (that piece of art your dear aunt gave you). Or maybe worse when the receiver loves dust collectors, and has a horde of clutter that you have just added to. Certainly you are inviting them to reciprocate with something sentimental, which now you can’t throw away even though you have no place to put it. It can be done, but you have to be really in tune with their tastes or listened carefully to what they like (e.g. I love some artists, but can really hate some of an artists oeuvre or I might not have a suitable place for it, so it is hard to pick something for me). > and will make the receiver think of giver every time they look at it Sometimes that could be selfish (depends on relationship etcetera).
dsr_ 6y ago
Since I know about knives, I would buy them a knife. If I was an accomplished bread baker, I would give them a couple of loaves each week for a month -- unless I knew they had a dietary issue. Don't buy a book about programming for a programmer; do buy the best book on programming in Python for a kid who shows interest.
- Afton 6y ago
  You can, but if you consider knives an uninteresting kitchen tool, then you have just given them a $300 knife that they will feel bad about every time they use it open a can of beans. btw: if you do know about knives, please hit me up at my email address and let me pick your brain a bit. [Edit: my email address wasn't in my profile. fixed, but I'll reach out to folks shortly, thanks!].
  - elil17 6y ago
    Hey I don't see your email address in your profile but I know a bit about knives and would be happy to answer any questions
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    I do know a bit about knives. Your email address isn't in your profile. Mine is in mine; feel free.
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    Part of knowing something about knives is in selecting the right tool(s) for the users. I'm not going to buy a 200mm gyuto for my parents; I got them a set of [chef's knife, bread knife, paring knife] that is miles better than what they had and still holds up well because I know it's only going to be sharpened when I come to visit.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    Anyone opening a can with a knife should feel bad about it.
    - 6y ago
boatsie 6y ago
Yes, this is the problem with gift giving something a person is “passionate” about— that passion means they probably already have the things they want and likely also has strong preferences you are unlikely to know anyways. I find buying a shared experience is better— a meal, dessert, golf, spa, etc. You get to spend time together, you get the benefit too, and it will not tend to be more memorable than some random gift.
- bisby 6y ago
  My wife hates this. Everything I want that I can afford, I already own. Anything I want that I can't afford, I shouldn't be receiving as a gift from someone else. That leaves the only remaining case of "things I don't want". So duplicate gifts, expensive gifts, or bad gifts. This puts us into the category that the article states you don't want to be in: guessing for things the other person wants (but doesn't know they want). this works great for me and my wife. it becomes an adventure of learning about each other. Not so much for aunts/uncles/etc. Cash, or nothing is fine. I feel worse about getting some knick knack that gets thrown out than just getting nothing.
  - OJFord 6y ago
    I think the best gifts are things you want, can afford, but haven't (quite yet) been able to justify. Up-thread people are talking about $300 knives. The vast majority of users here can 'afford' a $300 knife; that doesn't mean it's easy to justify or feel good about though. But receiving a $300 knife? I'd be giggly and excited and I'm not even 'into' knives. (I mean, they're tools, I have some decent ones, but they support interests rather than being the interest.)
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      I'd be sad about the huge waste. That's why a gift should only be a surprise on the when, not the what.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >That leaves the only remaining case of "things I don't want". So duplicate gifts, expensive gifts, or bad gifts. You're forgetting consumables. Surely you spend your time doing things and in the process of doing those things you consume other things. "I have way too many zip ties" -nobody ever
deleted 6y ago
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munchbunny 6y ago
I think you absolutely could just ask. Once you get over the need for surprise, the hand-off can still be a moment of delight. It's just a different sort of delight: it's the one you are anticipating because the thing you were excited about is finally arriving.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
When possible, this is when gift cards are great. My niece is an aspiring artist, and rather than trying to find out what art supplies she wants/needs, I got her a gift card to the art supply store that I know she shops at. Of course, "when possible" is a key word here. Not every store sells gift cards, and sometimes the well-known stores aren't the best deals. Like, I might be interested in making fun electric gadgets, so a gift certificate to the Adafruit might seem like a good idea, but I tend to prefer to buy my stuff from Aliexpress or Banggood because the prices are significantly lower. > I suppose the point of the article on this point is that if I just asked my friend, they would receive the value of the gift Simply asking really is the best course of action logically, but the idea of gifts being thought up on your own has been so romanticized.
- nicbou 6y ago
  Honestly I'm not a big fan of gift cards. The point of gift giving is to show you care, and gift cards feel like you're just trying to fulfil a social obligation without putting much thought into it. I'd rather use them as a last resort, for people I don't know so well.
  - nescioquid 6y ago
    I have a lot of hang-ups about gifts, largely because of the way this cultural ideal of the "thoughtful gift" plays against a personality more preoccupied with ideas rather than people and relationships. And so, rather than merely "fulfill a social obligation", I largely found ways to avoid it altogether. But now I think that was a foolish dismissal of social obligation. It really is the act itself that has the most significance, less so the content. To wit, the article's advice that in most cases, cash is fine.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    I dunno. I know any number of woodworker friends who are tickled pink to get e.g. Lie-Nielsen gift cards so they can get what they want for themselves once they accumulate enough. I think this perfectly nails the point of the article though, about how the giver has different motivations than the receiver.
ehwhyreally 6y ago
this comment reminds me of homer buying marge a bowling ball.
willpatrick 6y ago
Hey Afton! Yes, I definitely should have talked more about this. I got close to it once or twice, but it's an omission to be sure. (I have a friend who's big into cycling and is, therefore, impossible to buy cycling gifts for because nothing will cut the mustard.) Basically, I a) wasn't able to find much in the way of research that supported what I wanted to say and b) fumbled this point and should have found a way to stick it in there somehow. But then again I had no idea it would hit the top of HN. I'll be more careful next time!!
- Afton 6y ago
  Nah, you made a thing and put it on the internet! Thanks for doing that. The fact that I didn't find it a complete and exhaustive body of work on the topic absolutely shouldn't be interpreted as a criticism of the article.
  - willpatrick 6y ago
    Oh dude thank you. Nothing prepares you for hitting the front page of hn when you fully expected it to just disappear. Heartrate through the roof and the sudden 'oh shit!' of wondering whether the article was truly up to snuff or not!
dheera 6y ago
On this note, don't buy things that are squarely in the recipient's domain of expertise unless they have stated exactly what they want. I like photography and outdoors and I'm extremely picky about my gear in both, and definitely do NOT want others picking out gear for me that I will end up never using. On the other hand, do buy things that are in your domain of expertise that the other person has shown interest in learning about.
melenaos 6y ago
If they are interested in cooking you can buy them a top pepper mill from Kickstarter. Maybe for the next Christmas though. Its from the things that would be great to have but i cannot justify the cost. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mannkitchen/mannkitchen-pepper-cannon-the-pepper-mill-for-pepper-lovers https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mannkitchen/mannkitchen...

by Afton 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago

Your post really struck a chord with me because I'm the type of person that likes to give books as a gift. As the type of person that would totally give a book of 100 bread recipes to someone that I just know "bakes bread," I'm wondering if you think there are book gifts that someone could get you using that mindset and just a little more thinking about depth of domains. One doesn't need to know anything about baking bread to know that a recipe compilation book is a beginner gift and not something you'd give to someone who has any sort of domain expertise. Similar to how I'm not giving any of my SE friends the Computer Science for Dummies book. I guess what I'm trying to ask is... would a book about baking that isn't basic be a better gift? Even if it isn't particularly something you would have gotten yourself. Examples off the top of my head include a biography about a famous or obscure baker, an in depth book about the science behind baking, a hyper focused book about history of baking techniques, etc. Maybe trying to gain some domain expertise in something your potential gift receiver is interested in - in order to give a better gift - is a gift in itself? Here's a quick way you can get some functional domain expertise in knives to give a better gift to your knife friend (if you want). Depending on if they're into knives as collectibles or for use, I'd suggest finding out which brand(s) your friend favors and then picking up a used knife in a discontinued model from that brand on ebay. Worst case scenario they have it already but even then I bet they'd still value the gift.

busterarm 6y ago
My intuition would be to not give a book on baking bread, but on something tangential to bread baking... like a book on brewing or other kinds of fermentation! Something that connects with their expertise but is new to both of you. If somebody is into knives, maybe gift a course on blacksmithing or some japanese whetstones.
- yarcob 6y ago
  As a recipient of a blacksmithing course I'd like to say it was one of the best gifts I ever got. But it's a pretty expensive gift. But I've also been given knives a few times, and I loved most of them. It's not like you can have too many knives. I'm not sure what I'd do with an extra set of whetstones though.
  - kd0amg 6y ago
    I've been blacksmithing long enough to have arguably too many knives.
- war1025 6y ago
  > or some japanese whetstones I bought a set of diamond sharpening plates this summer after having had a cheap Arkansas stone for several years. Night and day difference. I can actually get things sharp quickly and consistently now. Since we're on the topic of gifts, if someone out there is thinking of a sharpening setup as a gift, can't recommend diamond plates highly enough. I bought a 300 / 600 / 1200 grit set off Amazon for I think $100
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    A good coarse stone makes all the difference. I have a 220/320 grit diamond plate for flattening my water stones, but it does wonders for making sharpening knives non-onerous. Woodworkers might be interested in the Norton water stone starter set of 2 combo stones 220/1000 and 4000/8000. The 220 wears out of flat so quickly it's useless, but I have the diamond plate anyhow. The 1000 and 8000 are great. The 4000 is a little soft, and you'll replace it before the others. Personally, I'll be replacing it with the Shapton equivalent in another year or two.

ebg13 6y ago

I have this problem often. I want very few things, I can easily afford everything I want, and the things I might want fall into two categories: 1. I already know the most about the thing and have already found the one that either maximizes the utility/price relationship or maximizes utility below my price sensitivity threshold. 2. I don't know the most about the thing yet and have therefore not decided what I want. The problem with the first is obvious: I either already own the thing or am about to, so the gift becomes just a cash transfer, and I don't need or want cash transfers from my friends. The problem with the second is less obvious until you know that I dislike owning things and only choose to own things when they meet the first category. So what's the answer for people with enough money and interest to buy good things for themselves? Don't buy them utility gifts if you aren't more passionate than they are. Buy them only weird sentimental things and quirky consumables that don't have to meet a personalized utility threshold. A small piece of artwork that comes with a note saying "This made me think of you" carries sentimental value and will make the receiver think of giver every time they look at it. A weird chocolate with ants inside will be weird and fun and it won't matter if it isn't the best weird chocolate with ants inside.

nicbou 6y ago
The sweet spot is consumables that will improve their life, but that they don't feel like spending money on. Let them indulge in quality food, candles, wine, clothes, tools, etc.
robocat 6y ago
> Buy them only weird sentimental things ... A small piece of artwork that comes with a note saying "This made me think of you" carries sentimental value It is incredibly hard to do this without giving someone a burden. The recipient often feels an obligation to keep obviously sentimental gifts, even if they hate them (that piece of art your dear aunt gave you). Or maybe worse when the receiver loves dust collectors, and has a horde of clutter that you have just added to. Certainly you are inviting them to reciprocate with something sentimental, which now you can’t throw away even though you have no place to put it. It can be done, but you have to be really in tune with their tastes or listened carefully to what they like (e.g. I love some artists, but can really hate some of an artists oeuvre or I might not have a suitable place for it, so it is hard to pick something for me). > and will make the receiver think of giver every time they look at it Sometimes that could be selfish (depends on relationship etcetera).

dsr_ 6y ago

Since I know about knives, I would buy them a knife. If I was an accomplished bread baker, I would give them a couple of loaves each week for a month -- unless I knew they had a dietary issue. Don't buy a book about programming for a programmer; do buy the best book on programming in Python for a kid who shows interest.

Afton 6y ago
You can, but if you consider knives an uninteresting kitchen tool, then you have just given them a $300 knife that they will feel bad about every time they use it open a can of beans. btw: if you do know about knives, please hit me up at my email address and let me pick your brain a bit. [Edit: my email address wasn't in my profile. fixed, but I'll reach out to folks shortly, thanks!].
- elil17 6y ago
  Hey I don't see your email address in your profile but I know a bit about knives and would be happy to answer any questions
- dsr_ 6y ago
  I do know a bit about knives. Your email address isn't in your profile. Mine is in mine; feel free.
- dsr_ 6y ago
  Part of knowing something about knives is in selecting the right tool(s) for the users. I'm not going to buy a 200mm gyuto for my parents; I got them a set of [chef's knife, bread knife, paring knife] that is miles better than what they had and still holds up well because I know it's only going to be sharpened when I come to visit.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  Anyone opening a can with a knife should feel bad about it.
  - 6y ago

boatsie 6y ago

Yes, this is the problem with gift giving something a person is “passionate” about— that passion means they probably already have the things they want and likely also has strong preferences you are unlikely to know anyways. I find buying a shared experience is better— a meal, dessert, golf, spa, etc. You get to spend time together, you get the benefit too, and it will not tend to be more memorable than some random gift.

bisby 6y ago
My wife hates this. Everything I want that I can afford, I already own. Anything I want that I can't afford, I shouldn't be receiving as a gift from someone else. That leaves the only remaining case of "things I don't want". So duplicate gifts, expensive gifts, or bad gifts. This puts us into the category that the article states you don't want to be in: guessing for things the other person wants (but doesn't know they want). this works great for me and my wife. it becomes an adventure of learning about each other. Not so much for aunts/uncles/etc. Cash, or nothing is fine. I feel worse about getting some knick knack that gets thrown out than just getting nothing.
- OJFord 6y ago
  I think the best gifts are things you want, can afford, but haven't (quite yet) been able to justify. Up-thread people are talking about $300 knives. The vast majority of users here can 'afford' a $300 knife; that doesn't mean it's easy to justify or feel good about though. But receiving a $300 knife? I'd be giggly and excited and I'm not even 'into' knives. (I mean, they're tools, I have some decent ones, but they support interests rather than being the interest.)
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    I'd be sad about the huge waste. That's why a gift should only be a surprise on the when, not the what.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >That leaves the only remaining case of "things I don't want". So duplicate gifts, expensive gifts, or bad gifts. You're forgetting consumables. Surely you spend your time doing things and in the process of doing those things you consume other things. "I have way too many zip ties" -nobody ever

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

munchbunny 6y ago

I think you absolutely could just ask. Once you get over the need for surprise, the hand-off can still be a moment of delight. It's just a different sort of delight: it's the one you are anticipating because the thing you were excited about is finally arriving.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

When possible, this is when gift cards are great. My niece is an aspiring artist, and rather than trying to find out what art supplies she wants/needs, I got her a gift card to the art supply store that I know she shops at. Of course, "when possible" is a key word here. Not every store sells gift cards, and sometimes the well-known stores aren't the best deals. Like, I might be interested in making fun electric gadgets, so a gift certificate to the Adafruit might seem like a good idea, but I tend to prefer to buy my stuff from Aliexpress or Banggood because the prices are significantly lower. > I suppose the point of the article on this point is that if I just asked my friend, they would receive the value of the gift Simply asking really is the best course of action logically, but the idea of gifts being thought up on your own has been so romanticized.

nicbou 6y ago
Honestly I'm not a big fan of gift cards. The point of gift giving is to show you care, and gift cards feel like you're just trying to fulfil a social obligation without putting much thought into it. I'd rather use them as a last resort, for people I don't know so well.
- nescioquid 6y ago
  I have a lot of hang-ups about gifts, largely because of the way this cultural ideal of the "thoughtful gift" plays against a personality more preoccupied with ideas rather than people and relationships. And so, rather than merely "fulfill a social obligation", I largely found ways to avoid it altogether. But now I think that was a foolish dismissal of social obligation. It really is the act itself that has the most significance, less so the content. To wit, the article's advice that in most cases, cash is fine.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  I dunno. I know any number of woodworker friends who are tickled pink to get e.g. Lie-Nielsen gift cards so they can get what they want for themselves once they accumulate enough. I think this perfectly nails the point of the article though, about how the giver has different motivations than the receiver.

ehwhyreally 6y ago

this comment reminds me of homer buying marge a bowling ball.

willpatrick 6y ago

Hey Afton! Yes, I definitely should have talked more about this. I got close to it once or twice, but it's an omission to be sure. (I have a friend who's big into cycling and is, therefore, impossible to buy cycling gifts for because nothing will cut the mustard.) Basically, I a) wasn't able to find much in the way of research that supported what I wanted to say and b) fumbled this point and should have found a way to stick it in there somehow. But then again I had no idea it would hit the top of HN. I'll be more careful next time!!

Afton 6y ago
Nah, you made a thing and put it on the internet! Thanks for doing that. The fact that I didn't find it a complete and exhaustive body of work on the topic absolutely shouldn't be interpreted as a criticism of the article.
- willpatrick 6y ago
  Oh dude thank you. Nothing prepares you for hitting the front page of hn when you fully expected it to just disappear. Heartrate through the roof and the sudden 'oh shit!' of wondering whether the article was truly up to snuff or not!

dheera 6y ago

On this note, don't buy things that are squarely in the recipient's domain of expertise unless they have stated exactly what they want. I like photography and outdoors and I'm extremely picky about my gear in both, and definitely do NOT want others picking out gear for me that I will end up never using. On the other hand, do buy things that are in your domain of expertise that the other person has shown interest in learning about.

melenaos 6y ago

If they are interested in cooking you can buy them a top pepper mill from Kickstarter. Maybe for the next Christmas though. Its from the things that would be great to have but i cannot justify the cost. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mannkitchen/mannkitchen-pepper-cannon-the-pepper-mill-for-pepper-lovers https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mannkitchen/mannkitchen...