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It is kind of disappointing that the discussion got side tracked to the computer budget in the classroom, which is totally missing the point. Perhaps it is a g

It is kind of disappointing that the discussion got side tracked to the computer budget in the classroom, which is totally missing the point. Perhaps it is a good idea to watch carefully the opening statement of Professor Papert: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4616563/user-clip-seymour-papert-alan-kay-technology-education https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4616563/user-clip-seymour-pap... The mess we are in right now (such as https://www.c-span.org/video/?462071-1/technology-companies-algorithms https://www.c-span.org/video/?462071-1/technology-companies-...) might have been avoided if we had a few generations of kids grown up in the Professor Papert's vision of "Educational Jet" instead of "Educational Stage Coach with Jet Engine" (zoom?). P.S. This is also related to another discussion about Metaphors in teaching: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25257087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25257087 in which I agree with EWD 100%.

gugagore 6y ago
If there is a specific discussion direction you have in mind, you should put it forth. That clip helps add more context, for sure. I don't have much to add, but I'll state that I adore Papert's vision, and that even those who disagree about "what we should do on Monday" should keep an eye on the vision. If it does not directly inform what steps to take in the short term, at least it should have an indirect influence. By a similar token, tearing everything down and trying to rebuilding it from scratch carefully is famously tempting and notoriously ineffective for software systems. Even with software it's hard to make that claim flat out, and I shouldn't dare try to draw an analogy to social systems, since, you know, revolutions happen and for good reason. But I am glad there are at least some people (though maybe there are relatively too many) with an eye toward incrementalism. There are many similar ideas to Papert's and Kay's that could perhaps be organized under a theme of being visionary or radical or in stark contrast to the status quo. Coming to mind are: A Mathematician's Lament by Paul Lockhart [1] (2002) or much more narrowly Ten Lessons I Wish I Had Learned Before Teaching Differential Equations by Gian-Carlo Rota [2] (1997). I'm also reminded of some work by Felienne that questions the idea that computer programming in particular is not amenable to traditional instruction. This idea is popular with this era's programmers (perhaps because for the most part, at least up until recently, programmers do not learn from school) [3]. [1] https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/devlin_03_08.html https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/devlin_03_08.htm... [2] https://web.williams.edu/Mathematics/lg5/Rota.pdf https://web.williams.edu/Mathematics/lg5/Rota.pdf [3] https://www.felienne.com/archives/6150 https://www.felienne.com/archives/6150
- ontouchstart 6y ago
  Thank you for the links. To be honest I don't know which direction the discussion might go. The context is this thread I posted on an Aug 1, 2016 discussion (Seymour Papert has died) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12202330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12202330 I have forgotten about it until four year later. Can't say we as a society had made any fundamental progress in education technology in the last 4 years, or 25 years. What about the next 4 years?
- todd8 6y ago
  Thank you for pointing out Professor Rota’s remarks on teaching differential equations; He was my Professor for my first course in Probability about 50 years ago. He was an unforgettable teacher! Once, I went to visit him during office hours. There was a light on visible behind a frosted window so I knocked on the door and awaited a reply. Instead of a reply, I heard a strange ring of what sounded like a chime. I waited a second and knocked again, and again the strange bell-like chime sounded in response. I peeked though the door and there was Professor Rota. Surrounded by stacks of books, on his desk, on a table, in mounds on the floor, Professor Rota, wearing as he did every day a three piece brown suit with a red tie and holding a large musical bell said “Well, come in!” My kids are now in their mid 20’s and I’ve been disappointed by the way that they were taught math before college. The “Industrial/political educational complex” has convinced the school that tablets and laptops and math books full of colorful pictures are what students need. The teachers are sent to workshops where they learn things like Russian Peasant and Egyptian multiplication. Sadly, many kids come out of such programs with remarkably poor basic math skills. I have a math degree and was comfortable tutoring my kids in math, but the schools themselves should have done a much better job.
  - ontouchstart 6y ago
    What a great story. Reminds me how I met Jerome Bruner 20 years ago at his Greenwich Village apartment.
  - gugagore 6y ago
    It’s always wonderful to hear personal accounts! I don’t think I understand the sentiment around the teacher workshops that you mentioned. How do you feel about the workshops teaching teachers about an “alternative” multiplication algorithm?

gugagore 6y ago

If there is a specific discussion direction you have in mind, you should put it forth. That clip helps add more context, for sure. I don't have much to add, but I'll state that I adore Papert's vision, and that even those who disagree about "what we should do on Monday" should keep an eye on the vision. If it does not directly inform what steps to take in the short term, at least it should have an indirect influence. By a similar token, tearing everything down and trying to rebuilding it from scratch carefully is famously tempting and notoriously ineffective for software systems. Even with software it's hard to make that claim flat out, and I shouldn't dare try to draw an analogy to social systems, since, you know, revolutions happen and for good reason. But I am glad there are at least some people (though maybe there are relatively too many) with an eye toward incrementalism. There are many similar ideas to Papert's and Kay's that could perhaps be organized under a theme of being visionary or radical or in stark contrast to the status quo. Coming to mind are: A Mathematician's Lament by Paul Lockhart [1] (2002) or much more narrowly Ten Lessons I Wish I Had Learned Before Teaching Differential Equations by Gian-Carlo Rota [2] (1997). I'm also reminded of some work by Felienne that questions the idea that computer programming in particular is not amenable to traditional instruction. This idea is popular with this era's programmers (perhaps because for the most part, at least up until recently, programmers do not learn from school) [3]. [1] https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/devlin_03_08.html https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/devlin_03_08.htm... [2] https://web.williams.edu/Mathematics/lg5/Rota.pdf https://web.williams.edu/Mathematics/lg5/Rota.pdf [3] https://www.felienne.com/archives/6150 https://www.felienne.com/archives/6150

ontouchstart 6y ago
Thank you for the links. To be honest I don't know which direction the discussion might go. The context is this thread I posted on an Aug 1, 2016 discussion (Seymour Papert has died) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12202330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12202330 I have forgotten about it until four year later. Can't say we as a society had made any fundamental progress in education technology in the last 4 years, or 25 years. What about the next 4 years?
todd8 6y ago
Thank you for pointing out Professor Rota’s remarks on teaching differential equations; He was my Professor for my first course in Probability about 50 years ago. He was an unforgettable teacher! Once, I went to visit him during office hours. There was a light on visible behind a frosted window so I knocked on the door and awaited a reply. Instead of a reply, I heard a strange ring of what sounded like a chime. I waited a second and knocked again, and again the strange bell-like chime sounded in response. I peeked though the door and there was Professor Rota. Surrounded by stacks of books, on his desk, on a table, in mounds on the floor, Professor Rota, wearing as he did every day a three piece brown suit with a red tie and holding a large musical bell said “Well, come in!” My kids are now in their mid 20’s and I’ve been disappointed by the way that they were taught math before college. The “Industrial/political educational complex” has convinced the school that tablets and laptops and math books full of colorful pictures are what students need. The teachers are sent to workshops where they learn things like Russian Peasant and Egyptian multiplication. Sadly, many kids come out of such programs with remarkably poor basic math skills. I have a math degree and was comfortable tutoring my kids in math, but the schools themselves should have done a much better job.
- ontouchstart 6y ago
  What a great story. Reminds me how I met Jerome Bruner 20 years ago at his Greenwich Village apartment.
- gugagore 6y ago
  It’s always wonderful to hear personal accounts! I don’t think I understand the sentiment around the teacher workshops that you mentioned. How do you feel about the workshops teaching teachers about an “alternative” multiplication algorithm?