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CIA Document from WikiLeaks Sheds Critical Light on U.S. Politics and Wars

115 points by jules-jules 6y ago

throwaway189262 6y ago
This article doesn't make any sense. It's a disguised Trump apologist piece. Look near the end where he describes Trump helping a dictator as a good thing because "it brings the corruption out in the open". Laughably stupid defence unless you believe the deep state pizza place pedo conspiracies, then it's 4D chess. He goes on to explain that Trump has publicly done many corrupt and terrible things that you normally don't see because "they're in the shadows". This is just the 4chan deep state crap that's been pushed by crazies ever since it turned out Obama was actually a US citizen, to everyone's surprise. It's far more likely that Trump is just corrupt and doing terrible things because that's what he does.
- rjkennedy98 6y ago
  This article said something quite plain and obvious: Obama when in office despite his rhetoric was an enabler and propagandizer (willing and not) of expanding middle eastern conflict. That is just objectively true despite how painful that may be for Obama supporters. Trump was not. The only "conspiracy" here is the speculation that it is a reason for the intelligence community disliking him. If you think that is a "pizza place pedo conspiracy" than I don't know what to tell you, except that Glen Greenwald is one of the foremost experts on US Intelligence and has seen tens of thousands of documents that few people have seen.
- mark_l_watson 6y ago
  Greenwald is tough on both republicans and democrats. He really doesn’t play fair because he uses well documented facts and, being independent, can cover any story he wants without being blocked by monied special interests, the DNC, or the RNC. I pay $5/month for Greenwald’s (and also Matt Taibbi’s) newsletters and it is money well spent.
- fault_lines 6y ago
  > Look near the end where he describes Trump helping a dictator as a good thing because "it brings the corruption out in the open". I could not find this in the article. > He goes on to explain that Trump has publicly done many corrupt and terrible things that you normally don't see because "they're in the shadows". This is a statement of fact, what part are you disagreeing with?
- bdavisx 6y ago
  I fucking hate Trump, probably more than you can imagine - but this article brings up one of the few things I thought he tried to do right - get us out of wars that we were mired in. Of course, he did a shitty job because he's an overall incompetent person when it comes to anything besides selling himself, but he did try. And although I didn't read the whole thing, the parts I did make me realize that I agree with the whole bring it out in the open part as well - if we're hiding that we are supporting evil dictators, most people consider that bad. Anyway, even with all that, I still hate him with a passion and I may make it my mission in retirement to piss on his grave, literally :) - childish but it would make me feel good.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    I only mostly agree with you, in that he seems to be trying to spin up a war with Iran. It’s hard to know what his actual goals are here.
  - kungito 6y ago
    I keep hearing how he's getting USA out of wars but then I go to wikipedia and read stuff like At the beginning of Donald Trump's presidency in early 2017, there were fewer than 9,000 American troops in Afghanistan.[92] By early summer 2017, troop levels increased by about 50%; there were no formal plans to withdraw.[93][94][95] In August 2019, the Taliban planned to negotiate with the U.S. to reduce troop levels back to where they had been when Trump took office,[96] but Trump canceled the negotiations after a Taliban attack.[97] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-95 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80...
- WealthVsSurvive 6y ago
  The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Trumpers in DC are chanting "I am my brother's keeper" and are upset at the US plutocracy and are taking a stand against it, regardless of how misinformed they actually are. Perhaps the progressive left should forgive them, find common ground, display class solidarity, and work together to actually drain the very real swamp.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    That's nice in theory, but falls apart as Trump supporters seem blind to Trump's own shameless corruption. "Drain the swamp" and "fake news" are valid critiques for sure, but Trump has merely channeled these frustrations to gain support and cover for carrying out his own graft. You can't get more blatant than stealing PPE from hospitals to redistribute it through your own company while taking a healthy cut. As a libertarian I had been intrigued by the meme that Trump hasn't started a new war, but this article puts that in the best context I've seen. He was happy to continue meddling in other countries and committing acts of war against Iran, just nothing strategic or long term. This fits with Trump being of low intelligence and used to simply waving his dick around to get what he wants, but that simply doesn't scale to the actions of a country. And so his pigheadedness is great for drawing attention to the workings of the corrupt system, but that's about it. I do see where Trump supporters are coming from, at least starting out. But I don't see how there can be solidarity while they continue to go on the offensive against the grassroots of the other team (antifa bogeyman, all lives matter, etc). And at this point I would say that is most of the energy of the movement. And so it's ultimately just another round of the same divide and conquer the masses that's been going on for decades, only this time with disastrous pandemic response.
    - WealthVsSurvive 6y ago
      1) Admit Trump was right about the coastal elites, then expound upon what they are. 2) Run on draining the swamp. 3) Relay the genuine message of Christ as anti-plutocrat, anti-empire. 4) Build bridges instead of identity judgements.
      - 6y ago
wil421 6y ago
Isn't the job of spy agency who only works on foreign soil to spread propaganda and to gather support for their respective county? Obama is the top US figure and it's not shocking at all he was trying to get support from allies. It's also not shocking that allies support was boosted when they heard Obama was on board with whatever the issue was. What does HN think the CIA job is? TBH I don't see anything here that is shocking and I bet almost all of the countries are doing the same exact thing. Wether it be the US's war in Afghanistan, China in the South China Sea or their Road and Belt projects, or even support for Brexit.
- artvark11 6y ago
  I agree that influencing public opinion in forgien countries is a core part of what the CIA does. An important question to ask is: what clandestine propaganda operations does the CIA operate that directly target the American people.
- hyeomans 6y ago
  Honest question, what are the propaganda agencies for Germany, UK, Rusia and China?
  - thelightthat 6y ago
    Russia would be the Kremlin
    - fault_lines 6y ago
      The Kremlin is not a propaganda agency any more than the White House is a propaganda agency.
  - fault_lines 6y ago
    In the UK, you're looking for JTRIG, Institute for Statecraft/Integrity Initiative, and the 77th Brigade, and probably tens to hundreds of smaller organizations.
  - wil421 6y ago
notional 6y ago
This is from the same guy who just got fired "resigned" from the Independant for pushing the bullshit Hunter Biden laptop conspiracy theory. The guy has fallen off his rocker and lost all credibility imo. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/29/business/media/glenn-greenwald-leaving-intercept.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/29/business/media/glenn-gree... > Mr. Greenwald later posted on Substack what he called “the most recent draft” of the article, which was headlined “The Real Scandal: U.S. Media Uses Falsehoods to Defend Joe Biden From Hunter’s Emails.”
- artvark11 6y ago
  What is bullshit about the laptop story? Where did those pictures come from? It's clearly a smear campaign but it's not a conspiracy.
  - mistermann 6y ago
    There was also some video of "a rather sensitive personal nature". Who knows where it all came from (was it on the laptop, was it obtained elsewhere and planted on a laptop), but the story certainly isn't a complete nothing burger.
- anonfornoreason 6y ago
  There was a great post here on HN showing someone using DKIM to validate authenticity of some of the emails (ones from gmail at least), so it’s clearly not completely bullshit. For what it’s worth, Greenwald and Taibbi both covered it and didn’t say “this is why joe Biden shouldn’t be elected”, they covered it as “why is the media refusing to cover a story that is worth covering”. Big difference. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24953454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24953454
  - MaxDPS 6y ago
    Yea, but from what I remember the email that was validated didn’t show anything incriminating. It was asking if they could get access to Biden but there was no reply one way or another. Which means we don’t even know if he read it.
zug_zug 6y ago
Summary: 1. Mentions, an NYT article citing a 2008 Pentagon plan to "destroy" wikileaks. 2. States his agenda of exposing "corrupt power centers" in America. 3. Proposes wikileaks was a good thing, driving accountability/transparency. 4. Names the “Red Cell Memorandum,” a leaked CIA document discussing how to manipulate the European public support of wars in the middle east. 5. Highlights that this CIA document recommends using Obama's public appeal as a tactic to reduce public dissent about the Afghanistan war in France/Germany. 6. Refers to this as "deep state" (presumably because it's an intelligence agency using a president, rather than vice-versa). 7. Proposes that the CIA hated Trump, because he didn't pretend the US was morally superior. 8. Provides an example of inviting "Abdel Fattah el-Sisi" to the whitehouse, a dictator we had supplied arms to in private but didn't publicly acknowledge. 9. "Few things infuriate U.S. foreign policy elites more than those who, unwittingly or otherwise, show the true face of the U.S. security state to the world."
rightisleft 6y ago
Hot Take: The president is a figure head for the various institutions in the United States... Thanks Glenn
- lowdose 6y ago
  The ones on the receiving end of QE. Mike Pence has delivered a stellar performance and executed completely in compliance with incentives objectives.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  > The president is a figure head That implies every president serves this function. The article sets out to debunk that exact assumption.
iron0013 6y ago
I don’t even need to open this link to know that Glenn pins all blame on democratic presidents and either ignores or downplays the role of Bush and Trump. How do some people still believe this guy is “a liberal” or even on the left at all?
doonesbury 6y ago
This piece would be more powerful and elucidating if it similarly wrote out in plain English what the US was doing in the Middle East in the first place. This piece focuses on means. We need ends too for context so we can better evaluate how the two connect, if at all. Or whether ends are fatally flawed.
- novaleaf 6y ago
  same ends as usual? I don't think this is a secret or anything: - supporting allies of the USA - support Israel (not just an ally!) - putting a damper on powerful non-ally hegemony (Russia / Iran) - ensuring stability of resource extraction in the region
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    > ensuring stability of resource extraction in the region What non-petrol resources?
threesmegiste 6y ago
Good morning America. You will be officially be directed by enterprieses mostly in 25 years.

115 points by jules-jules 6y ago

This article doesn't make any sense. It's a disguised Trump apologist piece. Look near the end where he describes Trump helping a dictator as a good thing because "it brings the corruption out in the open". Laughably stupid defence unless you believe the deep state pizza place pedo conspiracies, then it's 4D chess. He goes on to explain that Trump has publicly done many corrupt and terrible things that you normally don't see because "they're in the shadows". This is just the 4chan deep state crap that's been pushed by crazies ever since it turned out Obama was actually a US citizen, to everyone's surprise. It's far more likely that Trump is just corrupt and doing terrible things because that's what he does.

rjkennedy98 6y ago
This article said something quite plain and obvious: Obama when in office despite his rhetoric was an enabler and propagandizer (willing and not) of expanding middle eastern conflict. That is just objectively true despite how painful that may be for Obama supporters. Trump was not. The only "conspiracy" here is the speculation that it is a reason for the intelligence community disliking him. If you think that is a "pizza place pedo conspiracy" than I don't know what to tell you, except that Glen Greenwald is one of the foremost experts on US Intelligence and has seen tens of thousands of documents that few people have seen.
mark_l_watson 6y ago
Greenwald is tough on both republicans and democrats. He really doesn’t play fair because he uses well documented facts and, being independent, can cover any story he wants without being blocked by monied special interests, the DNC, or the RNC. I pay $5/month for Greenwald’s (and also Matt Taibbi’s) newsletters and it is money well spent.
fault_lines 6y ago
> Look near the end where he describes Trump helping a dictator as a good thing because "it brings the corruption out in the open". I could not find this in the article. > He goes on to explain that Trump has publicly done many corrupt and terrible things that you normally don't see because "they're in the shadows". This is a statement of fact, what part are you disagreeing with?
bdavisx 6y ago
I fucking hate Trump, probably more than you can imagine - but this article brings up one of the few things I thought he tried to do right - get us out of wars that we were mired in. Of course, he did a shitty job because he's an overall incompetent person when it comes to anything besides selling himself, but he did try. And although I didn't read the whole thing, the parts I did make me realize that I agree with the whole bring it out in the open part as well - if we're hiding that we are supporting evil dictators, most people consider that bad. Anyway, even with all that, I still hate him with a passion and I may make it my mission in retirement to piss on his grave, literally :) - childish but it would make me feel good.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  I only mostly agree with you, in that he seems to be trying to spin up a war with Iran. It’s hard to know what his actual goals are here.
- kungito 6y ago
  I keep hearing how he's getting USA out of wars but then I go to wikipedia and read stuff like At the beginning of Donald Trump's presidency in early 2017, there were fewer than 9,000 American troops in Afghanistan.[92] By early summer 2017, troop levels increased by about 50%; there were no formal plans to withdraw.[93][94][95] In August 2019, the Taliban planned to negotiate with the U.S. to reduce troop levels back to where they had been when Trump took office,[96] but Trump canceled the negotiations after a Taliban attack.[97] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-95 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80...
WealthVsSurvive 6y ago
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Trumpers in DC are chanting "I am my brother's keeper" and are upset at the US plutocracy and are taking a stand against it, regardless of how misinformed they actually are. Perhaps the progressive left should forgive them, find common ground, display class solidarity, and work together to actually drain the very real swamp.
- mindslight 6y ago
  That's nice in theory, but falls apart as Trump supporters seem blind to Trump's own shameless corruption. "Drain the swamp" and "fake news" are valid critiques for sure, but Trump has merely channeled these frustrations to gain support and cover for carrying out his own graft. You can't get more blatant than stealing PPE from hospitals to redistribute it through your own company while taking a healthy cut. As a libertarian I had been intrigued by the meme that Trump hasn't started a new war, but this article puts that in the best context I've seen. He was happy to continue meddling in other countries and committing acts of war against Iran, just nothing strategic or long term. This fits with Trump being of low intelligence and used to simply waving his dick around to get what he wants, but that simply doesn't scale to the actions of a country. And so his pigheadedness is great for drawing attention to the workings of the corrupt system, but that's about it. I do see where Trump supporters are coming from, at least starting out. But I don't see how there can be solidarity while they continue to go on the offensive against the grassroots of the other team (antifa bogeyman, all lives matter, etc). And at this point I would say that is most of the energy of the movement. And so it's ultimately just another round of the same divide and conquer the masses that's been going on for decades, only this time with disastrous pandemic response.
  - WealthVsSurvive 6y ago
    1) Admit Trump was right about the coastal elites, then expound upon what they are. 2) Run on draining the swamp. 3) Relay the genuine message of Christ as anti-plutocrat, anti-empire. 4) Build bridges instead of identity judgements.
    - 6y ago

wil421 6y ago

Isn't the job of spy agency who only works on foreign soil to spread propaganda and to gather support for their respective county? Obama is the top US figure and it's not shocking at all he was trying to get support from allies. It's also not shocking that allies support was boosted when they heard Obama was on board with whatever the issue was. What does HN think the CIA job is? TBH I don't see anything here that is shocking and I bet almost all of the countries are doing the same exact thing. Wether it be the US's war in Afghanistan, China in the South China Sea or their Road and Belt projects, or even support for Brexit.

artvark11 6y ago
I agree that influencing public opinion in forgien countries is a core part of what the CIA does. An important question to ask is: what clandestine propaganda operations does the CIA operate that directly target the American people.
hyeomans 6y ago
Honest question, what are the propaganda agencies for Germany, UK, Rusia and China?
- thelightthat 6y ago
  Russia would be the Kremlin
  - fault_lines 6y ago
    The Kremlin is not a propaganda agency any more than the White House is a propaganda agency.
- fault_lines 6y ago
  In the UK, you're looking for JTRIG, Institute for Statecraft/Integrity Initiative, and the 77th Brigade, and probably tens to hundreds of smaller organizations.
- wil421 6y ago

notional 6y ago

This is from the same guy who just got fired "resigned" from the Independant for pushing the bullshit Hunter Biden laptop conspiracy theory. The guy has fallen off his rocker and lost all credibility imo. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/29/business/media/glenn-greenwald-leaving-intercept.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/29/business/media/glenn-gree... > Mr. Greenwald later posted on Substack what he called “the most recent draft” of the article, which was headlined “The Real Scandal: U.S. Media Uses Falsehoods to Defend Joe Biden From Hunter’s Emails.”

artvark11 6y ago
What is bullshit about the laptop story? Where did those pictures come from? It's clearly a smear campaign but it's not a conspiracy.
- mistermann 6y ago
  There was also some video of "a rather sensitive personal nature". Who knows where it all came from (was it on the laptop, was it obtained elsewhere and planted on a laptop), but the story certainly isn't a complete nothing burger.
anonfornoreason 6y ago
There was a great post here on HN showing someone using DKIM to validate authenticity of some of the emails (ones from gmail at least), so it’s clearly not completely bullshit. For what it’s worth, Greenwald and Taibbi both covered it and didn’t say “this is why joe Biden shouldn’t be elected”, they covered it as “why is the media refusing to cover a story that is worth covering”. Big difference. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24953454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24953454
- MaxDPS 6y ago
  Yea, but from what I remember the email that was validated didn’t show anything incriminating. It was asking if they could get access to Biden but there was no reply one way or another. Which means we don’t even know if he read it.

zug_zug 6y ago

Summary: 1. Mentions, an NYT article citing a 2008 Pentagon plan to "destroy" wikileaks. 2. States his agenda of exposing "corrupt power centers" in America. 3. Proposes wikileaks was a good thing, driving accountability/transparency. 4. Names the “Red Cell Memorandum,” a leaked CIA document discussing how to manipulate the European public support of wars in the middle east. 5. Highlights that this CIA document recommends using Obama's public appeal as a tactic to reduce public dissent about the Afghanistan war in France/Germany. 6. Refers to this as "deep state" (presumably because it's an intelligence agency using a president, rather than vice-versa). 7. Proposes that the CIA hated Trump, because he didn't pretend the US was morally superior. 8. Provides an example of inviting "Abdel Fattah el-Sisi" to the whitehouse, a dictator we had supplied arms to in private but didn't publicly acknowledge. 9. "Few things infuriate U.S. foreign policy elites more than those who, unwittingly or otherwise, show the true face of the U.S. security state to the world."

rightisleft 6y ago

Hot Take: The president is a figure head for the various institutions in the United States... Thanks Glenn

lowdose 6y ago
The ones on the receiving end of QE. Mike Pence has delivered a stellar performance and executed completely in compliance with incentives objectives.
WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
> The president is a figure head That implies every president serves this function. The article sets out to debunk that exact assumption.

iron0013 6y ago

I don’t even need to open this link to know that Glenn pins all blame on democratic presidents and either ignores or downplays the role of Bush and Trump. How do some people still believe this guy is “a liberal” or even on the left at all?

doonesbury 6y ago

This piece would be more powerful and elucidating if it similarly wrote out in plain English what the US was doing in the Middle East in the first place. This piece focuses on means. We need ends too for context so we can better evaluate how the two connect, if at all. Or whether ends are fatally flawed.

novaleaf 6y ago
same ends as usual? I don't think this is a secret or anything: - supporting allies of the USA - support Israel (not just an ally!) - putting a damper on powerful non-ally hegemony (Russia / Iran) - ensuring stability of resource extraction in the region
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  > ensuring stability of resource extraction in the region What non-petrol resources?

threesmegiste 6y ago

Good morning America. You will be officially be directed by enterprieses mostly in 25 years.