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It all fits together now. No it doesn't. If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? If cheap labour

It all fits together now. No it doesn't. If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? If cheap labour is the excuse then its the problem of capitalism, not India or Indian engineers. The same goes to China and Chinese goods.

chc 15y ago
I don't follow. How is it capitalism's fault that India produces large numbers of bad engineers? You seem to be conflating the fact that capitalism (specifically, cost-cutting) leads to these engineers being employed with the fact that their education is lousy.
- rs3123 15y ago
  "India produces large numbers of bad engineers" - that's a sweeping statement. Among all countries, India sends the largest number of engineering students to the US (according to NSF - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number-of-sci-engineeri/644397/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number...), which is not bad for a country producing "bad" engineers. I am a professor in a US university, I work with a lot of technically trained undergraduates, and I can say that students here (as anywhere) when they complete their undergraduate education, are merely ready to become an apprentice at a company. Their education continues in the company (or research lab) they join. So when you compare recent Engineering undergraduates from different countries, I am willing to bet that their quality is on average not that different.
  - chc 15y ago
    If they're in your class, India is not producing those engineers. At any rate, we're talking about outsourcing. If they're not in India anymore, then by definition the US cannot outsource to them.
- pessimizer 15y ago
  I'm not sure if that's fair. If you produce a labor-intensive product of such variable utility (engineers), then you would expect the utility to drop to reach a price equilibrium. If there wasn't a demand for crappy engineers, the quality would rise - along with price. Therefore, their education is lousy precisely because these engineers are employed. India may just have conditions of production, whether by providence or design, that are more efficient at producing minimally satisfiable engineers than anywhere else. Of course I'm talking about a hypothetical India that produces engineer shaped widgets - so no offense intended:)
kierank 15y ago
If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? For companies who outsource clearly price is better than quality.
- Stormbringer 15y ago
  The problem is that because software is this ethereal invisible thing, no one can measure it or it's quality. We know the off shore code is crap. After all, 9 times out of 10 we're the ones who have to fix it even though it will still be chalked up as a success for offshoring. If they were offshoring something real, that they could look at and see the faults, that they could get their hands on, that they had to drive their cars over... they'd be screaming blue murder, and price wouldn't come into it.
michaelcampbell 15y ago
> No it doesn't. > If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? Because there are different ways of measuring top. He was talking about quality, you are talking about quantity. > If cheap labour is the excuse then its the problem of capitalism, not India or Indian engineers. Again, you two are measuring different things. > The same goes to China and Chinese goods. The fact there are so many Chinese goods does in no way imply they are "good".

chc 15y ago

I don't follow. How is it capitalism's fault that India produces large numbers of bad engineers? You seem to be conflating the fact that capitalism (specifically, cost-cutting) leads to these engineers being employed with the fact that their education is lousy.

rs3123 15y ago
"India produces large numbers of bad engineers" - that's a sweeping statement. Among all countries, India sends the largest number of engineering students to the US (according to NSF - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number-of-sci-engineeri/644397/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number...), which is not bad for a country producing "bad" engineers. I am a professor in a US university, I work with a lot of technically trained undergraduates, and I can say that students here (as anywhere) when they complete their undergraduate education, are merely ready to become an apprentice at a company. Their education continues in the company (or research lab) they join. So when you compare recent Engineering undergraduates from different countries, I am willing to bet that their quality is on average not that different.
- chc 15y ago
  If they're in your class, India is not producing those engineers. At any rate, we're talking about outsourcing. If they're not in India anymore, then by definition the US cannot outsource to them.
pessimizer 15y ago
I'm not sure if that's fair. If you produce a labor-intensive product of such variable utility (engineers), then you would expect the utility to drop to reach a price equilibrium. If there wasn't a demand for crappy engineers, the quality would rise - along with price. Therefore, their education is lousy precisely because these engineers are employed. India may just have conditions of production, whether by providence or design, that are more efficient at producing minimally satisfiable engineers than anywhere else. Of course I'm talking about a hypothetical India that produces engineer shaped widgets - so no offense intended:)

kierank 15y ago

If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? For companies who outsource clearly price is better than quality.

Stormbringer 15y ago
The problem is that because software is this ethereal invisible thing, no one can measure it or it's quality. We know the off shore code is crap. After all, 9 times out of 10 we're the ones who have to fix it even though it will still be chalked up as a success for offshoring. If they were offshoring something real, that they could look at and see the faults, that they could get their hands on, that they had to drive their cars over... they'd be screaming blue murder, and price wouldn't come into it.

michaelcampbell 15y ago

> No it doesn't. > If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? Because there are different ways of measuring top. He was talking about quality, you are talking about quantity. > If cheap labour is the excuse then its the problem of capitalism, not India or Indian engineers. Again, you two are measuring different things. > The same goes to China and Chinese goods. The fact there are so many Chinese goods does in no way imply they are "good".