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> When I see these complaints I see people talking about how they want other people to use the Internet and computers. That smells like authoritarianism. It's
by jakelazaroff 6y ago
> When I see these complaints I see people talking about how they want other people to use the Internet and computers. That smells like authoritarianism.
It's authoritarianism to politely suggest that people do things differently?
No one is proposing that we outlaw the corporate web… we're just trying to make the web a little less corporate.
- mulmen 6y ago> It's authoritarianism to politely suggest that people do things differently? There are frequent demands in the comment section of HN to break up Google, Facebook and Amazon. There is a comment in this very thread suggesting nationalizing Facebook and banning advertising. So no, your straw man does not stand. There is already an open web. You are free to host whatever you want. The authoritarianism I speak of is when you tell other people what they can and cannot do, politely or not.
- sk2jwhfid 6y agoThe people who want to break up tech monopolies aren't doing it because they want to tell people what to do. They want to break them up because they are strangling competiton and leaving consumers with less choice. You are acting like people using these apps is a sign that they like things better this way. Consider that, once the network effects are large enough, the end user doesn't really have a choice. So you can't claim people prefer things the way they are. This thread is proof that there are many people who want the web to be more open, but feel stuck with more centralized options.
- mulmen 6y agoI agree there is an argument to me made that competition has been stifled, in fact I agree that it has. But that is separate from the romanticized "old" or "open" internet I am speaking of. You have again invoked users. I'm making the argument that the romanticized "old" or "open" Internet is actually an exclusive clique populated by the Intelligentsia and it still exists. The people who use Facebook didn't leave this old internet, they were just never on it. And beyond that, if they did join it they would just ruin it anyway.
- jakelazaroff 6y agoI would say the straw man here is the claim that breaking up (arguable) monopolies or writing consumer protection laws is tantamount to authoritarianism. Those are both fairly innocuous actions within a regulated market. Rights often exist along a zero-sum spectrum; e.g., Google's right to surveil me on every site that uses Google Analytics impedes on my right to use the web privately. Telling people what they can and cannot do is not a hypothetical. It just comes down to where you draw the line.
- mulmen 6y agoThe straw man in this case is your mischaracterization of my allusion to authoritarianism with regard to users as a polite suggestion to moderate corporate change.
- jakelazaroff 6y agoIt's fair to say that I initially characterized your use of the term as regarding pleas to change personal behavior rather than legislation. But you clarified your meaning with examples fairly mild iterations from the status quo. That's either a straw man or an extremely liberal definition of the word "authoritarian".
- mulmen 6y agoTo be clear are you suggesting that nationalizing Facebook and banning advertising on the Internet are mild iterations on the status quo?
- jonathankoren 6y agoWho is saying this?
- mulmen 6y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25262354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25262354
- tomc1985 6y ago> There is already an open web. You are free to host whatever you want. The authoritarianism I speak of is when you tell other people what they can and cannot do, politely or not And what's the point if nobody will follow? It's just so much fun shouting into the void with a couple of likeminded friends...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mulmen 6y agoShouting will never give you a diverse perspective. You can only get that by listening.
- tomc1985 6y agoShouting into the void is metaphor for publishing to a medium that nobody reads.
- mulmen 6y agoYes and listening is a metaphor for reading.
- tomc1985 6y agoUnless that's a pointed jab at me not having read the article or comments (which I have) I'm not sure what you're getting at. The article mentions plenty of places where web viewership is effectively gone. So what is the point in trying then?
- mulmen 6y agoMy repetition of reading and listening is a response to your suggestion that shouting into the void creates echo chambers and what I interpreted as your fixation on being heard rather than listening. Instead of shouting into the void you could cross it to the places mentioned in the article and provide them viewership while diversifying your perspective.