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> University systems have the major problem that a significant portion of students are only there for a degree, and their participation is playing the game in o

> University systems have the major problem that a significant portion of students are only there for a degree, and their participation is playing the game in order to get that piece of paper, and the GPA number rating them. In defense of the students, they're just following the incentive gradient in front of them. For all the romantic notions about how college should be optimized for exploration and "real learning", only a small percentage of people actually want that. And that's fine! Not everyone needs to be that sort of person; you should be able to have a reasonably comfortable career even if you aren't. But the world is set up right now such that, without a university degree, you fall through the cracks and it's game over. In lots of high-earning jobs, a degree is either de jure required (law, medicine), or de facto required as most major employers won't look at you without one (finance, most tech stuff). So universities become degree mills because that's what the market demands, and students are only there so they can get a job afterward. To fix the universities, you have to fix the incentives.

colechristensen 6y ago
Oh absolutely, little blame can be fairly put on students, though everyone participates in the system and deserves some (and eventually everyone responsible was a student themselves at one time). > To fix the universities, you have to fix the incentives Who better than the universities to drive change? That is sort of their fundamental purpose is it not? If you need to lead a university around with a carrot, it really has failed to be much of a university.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  If we needed any more proof of how badly our universities have and continue to fail in their educational mission, the current year has provided it. There's no reason college students need to be on campus in a time of pandemic. Many schools have opened in order to "support sports" and for other asinine reasons, and then closed almost immediately. [0] Educational institutions that actually value education have cancelled athletic seasons completely. [0] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/11/the-colleges-with-no-coronavirus/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/11/the-colle...
gen220 6y ago
Let’s not fail to mention the $100k elephant in the room :). It’s very hard to focus on real learning when your financial freedom is at stake. People can not be faulted to feel that every minute spent studying the liberal arts curriculum is a minute that might be better invested in studying something that slays the elephant. It’s a life or death feeling when the money involved is more than your parents have earned cumulatively. Slaying the elephant becomes the end goal, everything else is secondary. A high GPA is a spear, and ethical integrity is a cheap way of obtaining it. This doesn’t explain why everyone cheats, but I think it attracts the otherwise “good” people, who are essential for normalizing the practice. IMO, we need to do away with the elephant, and the rest will follow. Schools need not be so expensive. I hope some startup school will do the job. Otherwise, companies might be the first to do it. It’s probably cheaper for Google to operate a University than it is to operate their recruiting pipeline :)
- dghlsakjg 6y ago
  I know a lot of people on here don't like them but software bootcamps are very much the startup working at solving the job training problem. Sadly, it is an industry where caveat emptor certainly applies, but if you do your research there are definitely programs that are worth their price. Check out CIRR.org which reports audited numbers from bootcamps. Good luck finding a university that reports comprehensive, audited, financial and career outcomes for their students. The numbers don't really exist, because it would be, guessing here, VERY embarassing for the universities.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    I seem to remember being given placement and salary statistics when starting out in engineering.
    - gen220 6y ago
      I got statistics too, starting out in engineering. But based on the surveys I’ve participated in since graduating, I’m suspicious of their methodology... Basically there’s no incentive for their studies to be scientific, and I don’t think they are. Their most-touted metric was “ROI”, which is super vague and highly dependent on in-field job placement, which was measured in a highly suspect way at my school.

colechristensen 6y ago

Oh absolutely, little blame can be fairly put on students, though everyone participates in the system and deserves some (and eventually everyone responsible was a student themselves at one time). > To fix the universities, you have to fix the incentives Who better than the universities to drive change? That is sort of their fundamental purpose is it not? If you need to lead a university around with a carrot, it really has failed to be much of a university.

jessaustin 6y ago
If we needed any more proof of how badly our universities have and continue to fail in their educational mission, the current year has provided it. There's no reason college students need to be on campus in a time of pandemic. Many schools have opened in order to "support sports" and for other asinine reasons, and then closed almost immediately. [0] Educational institutions that actually value education have cancelled athletic seasons completely. [0] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/11/the-colleges-with-no-coronavirus/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/11/the-colle...

gen220 6y ago

Let’s not fail to mention the $100k elephant in the room :). It’s very hard to focus on real learning when your financial freedom is at stake. People can not be faulted to feel that every minute spent studying the liberal arts curriculum is a minute that might be better invested in studying something that slays the elephant. It’s a life or death feeling when the money involved is more than your parents have earned cumulatively. Slaying the elephant becomes the end goal, everything else is secondary. A high GPA is a spear, and ethical integrity is a cheap way of obtaining it. This doesn’t explain why everyone cheats, but I think it attracts the otherwise “good” people, who are essential for normalizing the practice. IMO, we need to do away with the elephant, and the rest will follow. Schools need not be so expensive. I hope some startup school will do the job. Otherwise, companies might be the first to do it. It’s probably cheaper for Google to operate a University than it is to operate their recruiting pipeline :)

dghlsakjg 6y ago
I know a lot of people on here don't like them but software bootcamps are very much the startup working at solving the job training problem. Sadly, it is an industry where caveat emptor certainly applies, but if you do your research there are definitely programs that are worth their price. Check out CIRR.org which reports audited numbers from bootcamps. Good luck finding a university that reports comprehensive, audited, financial and career outcomes for their students. The numbers don't really exist, because it would be, guessing here, VERY embarassing for the universities.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  I seem to remember being given placement and salary statistics when starting out in engineering.
  - gen220 6y ago
    I got statistics too, starting out in engineering. But based on the surveys I’ve participated in since graduating, I’m suspicious of their methodology... Basically there’s no incentive for their studies to be scientific, and I don’t think they are. Their most-touted metric was “ROI”, which is super vague and highly dependent on in-field job placement, which was measured in a highly suspect way at my school.