5 ms·

Got a BS/MS in CompSci in my twenties when I was immature as a person, now doing online classes for a non-tech major. As an "adult student" the system seems 10x

Got a BS/MS in CompSci in my twenties when I was immature as a person, now doing online classes for a non-tech major. As an "adult student" the system seems 10x more broken than it was when I was a high school graduate. Being young and tuition-free it was easy to grind through the material just worrying about the next test in the next class. Now, here I am as a tricenarian trying to relax and understand hundreds of pages of anatomy material while everyone else seems to just binge seems so asinine. After 75 pages of reading, exams continue to be a black box. Here I am paying for instruction and the professors can't be bothered to tell me what's important to know for the career let alone the test. I got one teacher to chat off the record and he basically said to "get through it." What a disservice to students. Why are there still weeding-out classes? How many doctors, surgeons, programmers, engineers would there be in the world if it wasn't for these classes? The Montessori education system and the like seem so superior. College should be pass/fail.

csa 6y ago
I agree with a lot of your comment, and I basically think large swathes of education are just fundamentally broken for a variety of unfortunate reasons. That said, I would like to answer this question: > Why are there still weeding-out classes? In majors that are oversubscribed (e.g., pre-med, CS, etc.), these classes weed out the people who like the idea of the major/career more than the actual work involved. Good weeder courses (and I think that these exist) allow later classes in the major path to be more focused on the capable and motivated learners rather than baby-sitting the less-capable and less-motivated. There are two reasons why this is desirable: 1. There is no way that a department could get through the same amount of material if they had to accommodate the less motivated and less capable in all of the courses. 2. Your department will get a reputation in the field for having students who are capable of X, Y, and Z. Typically, if someone can't make it in the weeder classes at their school and they still want to enter that career path, then maybe it's better to go to a less competitive school. This sounds elitist, and maybe it is, but that's the workaround in our current system.
- jdmichal 6y ago
  > 1. There is no way that a department could get through the same amount of material if they had to accommodate the less motivated and less capable in all of the courses. This is the high-school-ification of university, and it's part of the problem. This is not mandatory learning / babysitting. Just stop accommodating them. Every class just moves at the pace it needs to move at, and if they can't keep up, so be it.
  - jdmichal 6y ago
    For my own notes into posterity, on further reflection, maybe the schools aren't accommodating. Maybe weed-out classes are hard because they're just moving at the pace they need to move at. But since they tend to be foundational classes, they have a lot of area to cover and so move relatively fast.
    - csa 6y ago
      This summary captures the intent of my comment accurately. I will add that the follow up classes can also move more aggressively since the weaker students have been culled by the required weeder course.
Balgair 6y ago
It sounds like you are in a pre-med class? My SO once TA'd for a pre-med class. Holy hell, the students were something else as compared to other disciplines. They literally would not leave my SO's office until they had argued up their grades on every assignment. My SO had to get security to escort them out, I am not joking. If they forgot, say, to multiply by 2 and then got the answer wrong, they still argued for full credit despite the very clear error. There was no shame whatsoever. We figured the other Profs and TAs just didn't want to deal with them, so the pre-meds learned to just wait out the graders to get their grades. To be clear, this was maybe ~15% of the class, but still a lot of students. The Prof was no help with this either and just advised to pass them along. What a mess. I understand that med school admissions is about as cut-throat as it gets, but my lord! It's these pressure cookers that lead to MD burnout and mis-selection. After all those shameless hours in undergrad, then med school hell, you finally get to practice on people just looking for their preferred opioid. Sorry to hear about the mess you are in, but you are right, it's systemic.
- labcomputer 6y ago
  I experienced the same thing while TAing physics for biosciences for a few semesters (which was 90% pre-meds), though I never had to call security. One apparently needs close to a 4.0 GPA, plus many extracurricular volunteer hours to qualify for medical school, plus glowing letters of recommendation. I also overheard a number of stories about pre-med students intentionally sabotaging other students by misleading them to think that private group tutoring sessions (to study for the MCAT) had been canceled. That experience helped form my beliefs about the driver high cost of medical care in the US. Specifically, that there is no shortage of people who are willing and qualified to be medical doctors, but that doctors and medical schools collude to artificially limit the supply of credentialed medical doctors as a means to increase doctor salaries. As you alluded to, I think it also creates an adverse selection problem, where the people who become doctors are mostly not those with excellent diagnosis skills or bedside manor or ethics, but those who are the most cutthroat and desperate to get into a high-paying career.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    > I also overheard a number of stories about pre-med students intentionally sabotaging other students by misleading them to think that private group tutoring sessions (to study for the MCAT) had been canceled. These aren't rumors. Pre-meds hate other pre-meds and are conditioned to play a zero sum game against one another. We then expect them to completely flip their attitude and become teams players. Collaborate with other medical professionals (former pre-meds), nurses and social workers. No wonder healthcare is so dysfunctional.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> I got one teacher to chat off the record and he basically said to "get through it." What a disservice to students. Why are there still weeding-out classes? How many doctors, surgeons, programmers, engineers would there be in the world if it wasn't for these classes? The Montessori education system and the like seem so superior. College should be pass/fail. Honestly, that's typical of most Biology lower division courses. The theory goes 'if you cannot pass this, you have no chance of the MCAT.' which may be true but some of us had no desire to be a physician. Someone replied to such an absurd structure explained to me that's 'how the system works.' Many of us that finally passed would not have anything directly to do with medicine and would AT BEST be considered ancillary service status to Medicine, and we were not amused. I personally will only take Industry-centric certifications, and I will never consider going back for anything degree related. Google really is making the smartest move out of all the FAANG corps in that regard, by placing grater value on their own rather than degrees. With that said, that's really what its there to do, isolate those who can commit to high loads of dated and rather antiqued (my near College credit HS Biology graded us on Kingdoms as Domains were already well established in the University lectures I attended) rote learning the best and 'thining the heard' for the upper-divisions which were super-capped when I was in University as all fields in Biology were impacted. I at least thought now with Online learning being the default for so many it's sad to see the tech still hasn't solved this problem of mainly distribution/class seats. I think it's one of the 2 elite schools in the UK (Cambridge or Oxford) that have an actual in-person skill assessment for your final rather than a test and most of your grade depends on that. My Inorganic Chemistry professor said his final exams were always the most preferable, albeit impractical, way to go about it. As a regular at his office hour lectures, I wish I had the pleasure of seeing what that may have been like. > My SO once TA'd for a pre-med class. Holy hell, the students were something else as compared to other disciplines. Been there, seen that as a Biology major just trying to get my foot in the door to get a graded paper during office hours. It's really sad now that I think about it as an adult that left the Industry long ago, you have no idea the weight on those kids shoulders to make it pass the openly touted 'filter' process, be it self-imposed or from their family. Its a sad reality how few end up using it all in these 2 horrible job markets for young inexperienced graduates. My heart goes out to anyone who has to graduate in this Market, 2008 was bad but I think this may end up being worse as automation wasn't as big of threat as it was in 2008 as it is now in 2020 with COVID. PS: Also, its well known amongst Biology majors that adderall abuse doesn't just start in Medschool, its a well established habit by undergrad possibly even the HS level for some.

csa 6y ago

I agree with a lot of your comment, and I basically think large swathes of education are just fundamentally broken for a variety of unfortunate reasons. That said, I would like to answer this question: > Why are there still weeding-out classes? In majors that are oversubscribed (e.g., pre-med, CS, etc.), these classes weed out the people who like the idea of the major/career more than the actual work involved. Good weeder courses (and I think that these exist) allow later classes in the major path to be more focused on the capable and motivated learners rather than baby-sitting the less-capable and less-motivated. There are two reasons why this is desirable: 1. There is no way that a department could get through the same amount of material if they had to accommodate the less motivated and less capable in all of the courses. 2. Your department will get a reputation in the field for having students who are capable of X, Y, and Z. Typically, if someone can't make it in the weeder classes at their school and they still want to enter that career path, then maybe it's better to go to a less competitive school. This sounds elitist, and maybe it is, but that's the workaround in our current system.

jdmichal 6y ago
> 1. There is no way that a department could get through the same amount of material if they had to accommodate the less motivated and less capable in all of the courses. This is the high-school-ification of university, and it's part of the problem. This is not mandatory learning / babysitting. Just stop accommodating them. Every class just moves at the pace it needs to move at, and if they can't keep up, so be it.
- jdmichal 6y ago
  For my own notes into posterity, on further reflection, maybe the schools aren't accommodating. Maybe weed-out classes are hard because they're just moving at the pace they need to move at. But since they tend to be foundational classes, they have a lot of area to cover and so move relatively fast.
  - csa 6y ago
    This summary captures the intent of my comment accurately. I will add that the follow up classes can also move more aggressively since the weaker students have been culled by the required weeder course.

Balgair 6y ago

It sounds like you are in a pre-med class? My SO once TA'd for a pre-med class. Holy hell, the students were something else as compared to other disciplines. They literally would not leave my SO's office until they had argued up their grades on every assignment. My SO had to get security to escort them out, I am not joking. If they forgot, say, to multiply by 2 and then got the answer wrong, they still argued for full credit despite the very clear error. There was no shame whatsoever. We figured the other Profs and TAs just didn't want to deal with them, so the pre-meds learned to just wait out the graders to get their grades. To be clear, this was maybe ~15% of the class, but still a lot of students. The Prof was no help with this either and just advised to pass them along. What a mess. I understand that med school admissions is about as cut-throat as it gets, but my lord! It's these pressure cookers that lead to MD burnout and mis-selection. After all those shameless hours in undergrad, then med school hell, you finally get to practice on people just looking for their preferred opioid. Sorry to hear about the mess you are in, but you are right, it's systemic.

labcomputer 6y ago
I experienced the same thing while TAing physics for biosciences for a few semesters (which was 90% pre-meds), though I never had to call security. One apparently needs close to a 4.0 GPA, plus many extracurricular volunteer hours to qualify for medical school, plus glowing letters of recommendation. I also overheard a number of stories about pre-med students intentionally sabotaging other students by misleading them to think that private group tutoring sessions (to study for the MCAT) had been canceled. That experience helped form my beliefs about the driver high cost of medical care in the US. Specifically, that there is no shortage of people who are willing and qualified to be medical doctors, but that doctors and medical schools collude to artificially limit the supply of credentialed medical doctors as a means to increase doctor salaries. As you alluded to, I think it also creates an adverse selection problem, where the people who become doctors are mostly not those with excellent diagnosis skills or bedside manor or ethics, but those who are the most cutthroat and desperate to get into a high-paying career.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > I also overheard a number of stories about pre-med students intentionally sabotaging other students by misleading them to think that private group tutoring sessions (to study for the MCAT) had been canceled. These aren't rumors. Pre-meds hate other pre-meds and are conditioned to play a zero sum game against one another. We then expect them to completely flip their attitude and become teams players. Collaborate with other medical professionals (former pre-meds), nurses and social workers. No wonder healthcare is so dysfunctional.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> I got one teacher to chat off the record and he basically said to "get through it." What a disservice to students. Why are there still weeding-out classes? How many doctors, surgeons, programmers, engineers would there be in the world if it wasn't for these classes? The Montessori education system and the like seem so superior. College should be pass/fail. Honestly, that's typical of most Biology lower division courses. The theory goes 'if you cannot pass this, you have no chance of the MCAT.' which may be true but some of us had no desire to be a physician. Someone replied to such an absurd structure explained to me that's 'how the system works.' Many of us that finally passed would not have anything directly to do with medicine and would AT BEST be considered ancillary service status to Medicine, and we were not amused. I personally will only take Industry-centric certifications, and I will never consider going back for anything degree related. Google really is making the smartest move out of all the FAANG corps in that regard, by placing grater value on their own rather than degrees. With that said, that's really what its there to do, isolate those who can commit to high loads of dated and rather antiqued (my near College credit HS Biology graded us on Kingdoms as Domains were already well established in the University lectures I attended) rote learning the best and 'thining the heard' for the upper-divisions which were super-capped when I was in University as all fields in Biology were impacted. I at least thought now with Online learning being the default for so many it's sad to see the tech still hasn't solved this problem of mainly distribution/class seats. I think it's one of the 2 elite schools in the UK (Cambridge or Oxford) that have an actual in-person skill assessment for your final rather than a test and most of your grade depends on that. My Inorganic Chemistry professor said his final exams were always the most preferable, albeit impractical, way to go about it. As a regular at his office hour lectures, I wish I had the pleasure of seeing what that may have been like. > My SO once TA'd for a pre-med class. Holy hell, the students were something else as compared to other disciplines. Been there, seen that as a Biology major just trying to get my foot in the door to get a graded paper during office hours. It's really sad now that I think about it as an adult that left the Industry long ago, you have no idea the weight on those kids shoulders to make it pass the openly touted 'filter' process, be it self-imposed or from their family. Its a sad reality how few end up using it all in these 2 horrible job markets for young inexperienced graduates. My heart goes out to anyone who has to graduate in this Market, 2008 was bad but I think this may end up being worse as automation wasn't as big of threat as it was in 2008 as it is now in 2020 with COVID. PS: Also, its well known amongst Biology majors that adderall abuse doesn't just start in Medschool, its a well established habit by undergrad possibly even the HS level for some.