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The examination pattern fulfills their expectations – asking questions straight from the book which require no application-level knowledge at all. It all fits

by sc68cal 15y ago

The examination pattern fulfills their expectations – asking questions straight from the book which require no application-level knowledge at all. It all fits together now. That's why so much code that is farmed out to India comes back looking in such sorry shape.

poundy 15y ago
Well, obviously you've been using horrible developers (you can find them in your home country too). IIT's are not your average university. Digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are of Indian origin. Gates warned US congress on H1B visas, "U.S. companies simply will not have the talent they need to innovate and compete," and all those Indian students receiving their education at U.S. universities will have to leave, to the detriment of US high tech companies
- sathyabhat 15y ago
  Can we please not have those made-up stats passed off as real ones? Those numbers were conjured up for a stupid email forward which has no citations. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Op290308singhsnguptas.asp http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Op290308sin...
- kamaal 15y ago
  Sorry I refuse to believe in this. Last time I checked, Good folks in India come out irrespective of the college. I know a lot of IIT'ians who really put the name of the Institute to shame. Eating on a brand name has been a long used strategy by people in India.
dimmuborgir 15y ago
It all fits together now. No it doesn't. If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? If cheap labour is the excuse then its the problem of capitalism, not India or Indian engineers. The same goes to China and Chinese goods.
- chc 15y ago
  I don't follow. How is it capitalism's fault that India produces large numbers of bad engineers? You seem to be conflating the fact that capitalism (specifically, cost-cutting) leads to these engineers being employed with the fact that their education is lousy.
  - rs3123 15y ago
    "India produces large numbers of bad engineers" - that's a sweeping statement. Among all countries, India sends the largest number of engineering students to the US (according to NSF - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number-of-sci-engineeri/644397/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number...), which is not bad for a country producing "bad" engineers. I am a professor in a US university, I work with a lot of technically trained undergraduates, and I can say that students here (as anywhere) when they complete their undergraduate education, are merely ready to become an apprentice at a company. Their education continues in the company (or research lab) they join. So when you compare recent Engineering undergraduates from different countries, I am willing to bet that their quality is on average not that different.
    - chc 15y ago
      If they're in your class, India is not producing those engineers. At any rate, we're talking about outsourcing. If they're not in India anymore, then by definition the US cannot outsource to them.
  - pessimizer 15y ago
    I'm not sure if that's fair. If you produce a labor-intensive product of such variable utility (engineers), then you would expect the utility to drop to reach a price equilibrium. If there wasn't a demand for crappy engineers, the quality would rise - along with price. Therefore, their education is lousy precisely because these engineers are employed. India may just have conditions of production, whether by providence or design, that are more efficient at producing minimally satisfiable engineers than anywhere else. Of course I'm talking about a hypothetical India that produces engineer shaped widgets - so no offense intended:)
balloot 15y ago
This has been my experience too. If you specify exactly what you want down to every little detail, Indian teams can write the code. But if anything is left hanging at all, you get results that are subpar. My take away from working with graduates of Indian universities, both abroad and at home, is that these schools do not impart critical thinking skills as well as they should. This definitely hampers employability for many grads.
aniket_ray 15y ago
If you pay below par you'll get sub par engineers. It's not rocket science. Good engineers command good salaries.
- jrockway 15y ago
  I've worked with some engineers in India that aren't getting good salaries. They were much smarter than some people in the US that are getting good salaries. Salary, in my experience, really correlates with nothing. It doesn't make sense, but that's my experience.
  - kamaal 15y ago
    In India too its the same, the actual smarter ones end up earning less than the morons. May be you get what you reward. You reward crappy programmers you get crappy output.

by sc68cal 15y ago

poundy 15y ago

Well, obviously you've been using horrible developers (you can find them in your home country too). IIT's are not your average university. Digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are of Indian origin. Gates warned US congress on H1B visas, "U.S. companies simply will not have the talent they need to innovate and compete," and all those Indian students receiving their education at U.S. universities will have to leave, to the detriment of US high tech companies

sathyabhat 15y ago
Can we please not have those made-up stats passed off as real ones? Those numbers were conjured up for a stupid email forward which has no citations. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Op290308singhsnguptas.asp http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Op290308sin...
kamaal 15y ago
Sorry I refuse to believe in this. Last time I checked, Good folks in India come out irrespective of the college. I know a lot of IIT'ians who really put the name of the Institute to shame. Eating on a brand name has been a long used strategy by people in India.

dimmuborgir 15y ago

It all fits together now. No it doesn't. If what you claimed was true then why does India still continue to be the top outsource destination? If cheap labour is the excuse then its the problem of capitalism, not India or Indian engineers. The same goes to China and Chinese goods.

chc 15y ago
I don't follow. How is it capitalism's fault that India produces large numbers of bad engineers? You seem to be conflating the fact that capitalism (specifically, cost-cutting) leads to these engineers being employed with the fact that their education is lousy.
- rs3123 15y ago
  "India produces large numbers of bad engineers" - that's a sweeping statement. Among all countries, India sends the largest number of engineering students to the US (according to NSF - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number-of-sci-engineeri/644397/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-sends-maximum-number...), which is not bad for a country producing "bad" engineers. I am a professor in a US university, I work with a lot of technically trained undergraduates, and I can say that students here (as anywhere) when they complete their undergraduate education, are merely ready to become an apprentice at a company. Their education continues in the company (or research lab) they join. So when you compare recent Engineering undergraduates from different countries, I am willing to bet that their quality is on average not that different.
  - chc 15y ago
    If they're in your class, India is not producing those engineers. At any rate, we're talking about outsourcing. If they're not in India anymore, then by definition the US cannot outsource to them.
- pessimizer 15y ago
  I'm not sure if that's fair. If you produce a labor-intensive product of such variable utility (engineers), then you would expect the utility to drop to reach a price equilibrium. If there wasn't a demand for crappy engineers, the quality would rise - along with price. Therefore, their education is lousy precisely because these engineers are employed. India may just have conditions of production, whether by providence or design, that are more efficient at producing minimally satisfiable engineers than anywhere else. Of course I'm talking about a hypothetical India that produces engineer shaped widgets - so no offense intended:)

balloot 15y ago

This has been my experience too. If you specify exactly what you want down to every little detail, Indian teams can write the code. But if anything is left hanging at all, you get results that are subpar. My take away from working with graduates of Indian universities, both abroad and at home, is that these schools do not impart critical thinking skills as well as they should. This definitely hampers employability for many grads.

aniket_ray 15y ago

If you pay below par you'll get sub par engineers. It's not rocket science. Good engineers command good salaries.

jrockway 15y ago
I've worked with some engineers in India that aren't getting good salaries. They were much smarter than some people in the US that are getting good salaries. Salary, in my experience, really correlates with nothing. It doesn't make sense, but that's my experience.
- kamaal 15y ago
  In India too its the same, the actual smarter ones end up earning less than the morons. May be you get what you reward. You reward crappy programmers you get crappy output.