6 ms·

I think not having it disappear by default is reasonable. My biggest complaint about signal is how hard it is to preserve history (backing up / transferring to

I think not having it disappear by default is reasonable. My biggest complaint about signal is how hard it is to preserve history (backing up / transferring to new devices). I think the normal expectation is that your data is not going to automatically disappear unless you ask it to.

asquabventured 6y ago
When was the last time you moved devices? I was able to wirelessly import my entire years old messaging and contact database when I switched iOS devices ~10 months ago. I don't recall if it used NFC, Bluetooth or having to be connected to the same WiFi network but it worked impressively well at the time.
- xiaomai 6y ago
  one thing i have done recently that definitely didn't work is syncing history from phone->desktop. i haven't gone phone->phone in at least a couple years though--good to hear that that's working better.
  - bilal4hmed 6y ago
    They recently improved it on iOS https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ on Android you have to do it manually and its by no means easy or intuitive if you are an everyday user. Whatsapp nails this experience on Android with the back up and transfer capability
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      > Whatsapp nails this experience on Android with the back up and transfer capability Note that Whatsapp’s backups are in plaintext and sent to a Google property, while Signal’s backups (even if more cumbersome to set up) are encrypted with a key that only you know.
      - bilal4hmed 6y ago
        yes good catch, I forgot to mention that. I wanted to highlight that for the average user being able to backup and move messages to a new device easily is a big plus even if its insecure. I hope in 2021 Signal can improve their new transfer method by allowing transfers between Android devices or even ( albeit far more difficult) android and ios
    - fidelramos 6y ago
      But WhatsApp backups are stored unencrypted on Google Drive. So either you have backups or you keep your privacy from Google and Facebook.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  The iOS transfer process uses the same technology as AirDrop, what Apple calls Multipeer Connectivity: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/multipeerconnectivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/multipeerconnectiv... The phones create their own ad-hoc Wi-Fi network, similar to Wi-Fi Direct.
- climb_stealth 6y ago
  I think the problem is losing access to a phone. For example because it gets dropped or stolen. The lack of good message backups on iOS makes me hesitant to recommend Signal more.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    At least on Signal for Android, you can make all the periodic backups of your Signal messages that you want: just be sure to copy the most recent backup file from your phone to another computer, and keep the encryption key (i.e. the sequence of numbers that Signal generates for you) written down somewhere. Then, if your phone does get dropped or stolen, you will have only lost messages since your last backup.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      Signal for iOS goes out of its way to prevent this.
    - izacus 6y ago
      The Android backups are also to SD card only - you "just" need to manually handle cron jobs to copy off device, "just" make sure you copy of a really long key (you're not allowed to enter yourself) and "just" hope that a year down the road you still find all of those data. It's a horribly shitty user experience all but most mindful techies. The issue with Signal is that their developers fundamentally don't value the content of conversations in the way that millions of other people do - people send photos of their loved ones, have meaningful conversations and they fundamentally care about not losing them. Signal developers think that that's all worthless and needs to be destroyed ASAP.
neckardt 6y ago
I have the opposite problem where I can't turn disappearing messages on by default. Every time I create a new conversation I have to manually set messages to disappear after a week which I often forget to do.
glitchc 6y ago
I never understand this logic. You want end-to-end encryption, which entails building a complex, clever mousetrap so that only the device in your hands is capable of viewing the messages you receive, AND you want to back them up so that they can be retrieved later on a different device that was not part of the trusted setup?? If the backup is a priority, perhaps end-to-end encryption is not suited to your use case. And no, it's not simple at all to provide this technology in a meaningful way that is both as secure as you need and as convenient as you want. Nor should it be free if it ever exists.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  The Android and desktop versions already do this. Why shouldn't it be free?
  - glitchc 6y ago
    Do they? Where are the encryption keys stored? Are you able to recover your backups if you lose your desktop?
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      Desktop stores the key on disk already. Android shows a key you write down.
- AnonC 6y ago
  Your viewpoint leaves out a larger number of people who want security (as recommended by experts) and convenience without having to understand all the nuances or complexities involved in a solution. Such a description also makes it very hard to recommend Signal to lay people because they don’t know or care much about security but do want convenience. If Signal is meant to be for a small echo chamber group to use, this is fine. If not, the convenience aspect cannot, and should not, be ignored to increase adoption.
bonestamp2 6y ago
I agree with both of you. It should be off by default, but it should notify users initially and periodically about the benefits of turning it on so they are aware of it.
godelski 6y ago
As someone that doesn't fret with the saving history part I'm curious why people save their texts and back them up. Honestly it is a bit creepy to me. I can understand saving special texts (especially for a short time period) but it seems weird to me that people want to save texts from a year ago that talk about what I had for breakfast. There's something I'm not getting here, can someone enlighten me? Like I've never searched my texts for something that is more than a few weeks old. Any further back than that and I just directly ask the person (it is way faster).
- im3w1l 6y ago
  People drift apart or even die.
- mikem170 6y ago
  One reason may be that some people are hoarders. It's in our genes, like squirrels packing away nuts for the winter. Another may be that texts are like emails for some people, and some people have reason to save important emails. I know a real estate agent that does a ton of stuff via text. I delete texts after I process them. If I get a pic I want to keep I save it and back it up on the computer. I don't really save emails, either (I empty my trash every couple of months) EDIT: added email comparison
  - godelski 6y ago
    I'm not sure the email comparison is good. We usually do a lot of business via email. So it makes sense to have records. Whereas texting we are just casually having conversations. Most people don't use it for business, though I'm sure some do. I do completely understand archiving specific texts (sorry if this wasn't clear in my original statement), but the mass saving is weird to me. It feels akin to having a conversation with my friend and them just pulling out a microphone and recording our conversation. And then when asking why the answer is "for my records" or "it's my data". And I'm accused of being the weird one. I guess I just fundamentally don't understand.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Saving history doesn't have to mean saving every message.

asquabventured 6y ago

When was the last time you moved devices? I was able to wirelessly import my entire years old messaging and contact database when I switched iOS devices ~10 months ago. I don't recall if it used NFC, Bluetooth or having to be connected to the same WiFi network but it worked impressively well at the time.

xiaomai 6y ago
one thing i have done recently that definitely didn't work is syncing history from phone->desktop. i haven't gone phone->phone in at least a couple years though--good to hear that that's working better.
- bilal4hmed 6y ago
  They recently improved it on iOS https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ on Android you have to do it manually and its by no means easy or intuitive if you are an everyday user. Whatsapp nails this experience on Android with the back up and transfer capability
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > Whatsapp nails this experience on Android with the back up and transfer capability Note that Whatsapp’s backups are in plaintext and sent to a Google property, while Signal’s backups (even if more cumbersome to set up) are encrypted with a key that only you know.
    - bilal4hmed 6y ago
      yes good catch, I forgot to mention that. I wanted to highlight that for the average user being able to backup and move messages to a new device easily is a big plus even if its insecure. I hope in 2021 Signal can improve their new transfer method by allowing transfers between Android devices or even ( albeit far more difficult) android and ios
  - fidelramos 6y ago
    But WhatsApp backups are stored unencrypted on Google Drive. So either you have backups or you keep your privacy from Google and Facebook.
jaywalk 6y ago
The iOS transfer process uses the same technology as AirDrop, what Apple calls Multipeer Connectivity: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/multipeerconnectivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/multipeerconnectiv... The phones create their own ad-hoc Wi-Fi network, similar to Wi-Fi Direct.
climb_stealth 6y ago
I think the problem is losing access to a phone. For example because it gets dropped or stolen. The lack of good message backups on iOS makes me hesitant to recommend Signal more.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  At least on Signal for Android, you can make all the periodic backups of your Signal messages that you want: just be sure to copy the most recent backup file from your phone to another computer, and keep the encryption key (i.e. the sequence of numbers that Signal generates for you) written down somewhere. Then, if your phone does get dropped or stolen, you will have only lost messages since your last backup.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Signal for iOS goes out of its way to prevent this.
  - izacus 6y ago
    The Android backups are also to SD card only - you "just" need to manually handle cron jobs to copy off device, "just" make sure you copy of a really long key (you're not allowed to enter yourself) and "just" hope that a year down the road you still find all of those data. It's a horribly shitty user experience all but most mindful techies. The issue with Signal is that their developers fundamentally don't value the content of conversations in the way that millions of other people do - people send photos of their loved ones, have meaningful conversations and they fundamentally care about not losing them. Signal developers think that that's all worthless and needs to be destroyed ASAP.

neckardt 6y ago

I have the opposite problem where I can't turn disappearing messages on by default. Every time I create a new conversation I have to manually set messages to disappear after a week which I often forget to do.

glitchc 6y ago

I never understand this logic. You want end-to-end encryption, which entails building a complex, clever mousetrap so that only the device in your hands is capable of viewing the messages you receive, AND you want to back them up so that they can be retrieved later on a different device that was not part of the trusted setup?? If the backup is a priority, perhaps end-to-end encryption is not suited to your use case. And no, it's not simple at all to provide this technology in a meaningful way that is both as secure as you need and as convenient as you want. Nor should it be free if it ever exists.

pseudalopex 6y ago
The Android and desktop versions already do this. Why shouldn't it be free?
- glitchc 6y ago
  Do they? Where are the encryption keys stored? Are you able to recover your backups if you lose your desktop?
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Desktop stores the key on disk already. Android shows a key you write down.
AnonC 6y ago
Your viewpoint leaves out a larger number of people who want security (as recommended by experts) and convenience without having to understand all the nuances or complexities involved in a solution. Such a description also makes it very hard to recommend Signal to lay people because they don’t know or care much about security but do want convenience. If Signal is meant to be for a small echo chamber group to use, this is fine. If not, the convenience aspect cannot, and should not, be ignored to increase adoption.

bonestamp2 6y ago

I agree with both of you. It should be off by default, but it should notify users initially and periodically about the benefits of turning it on so they are aware of it.

godelski 6y ago

As someone that doesn't fret with the saving history part I'm curious why people save their texts and back them up. Honestly it is a bit creepy to me. I can understand saving special texts (especially for a short time period) but it seems weird to me that people want to save texts from a year ago that talk about what I had for breakfast. There's something I'm not getting here, can someone enlighten me? Like I've never searched my texts for something that is more than a few weeks old. Any further back than that and I just directly ask the person (it is way faster).

im3w1l 6y ago
People drift apart or even die.
mikem170 6y ago
One reason may be that some people are hoarders. It's in our genes, like squirrels packing away nuts for the winter. Another may be that texts are like emails for some people, and some people have reason to save important emails. I know a real estate agent that does a ton of stuff via text. I delete texts after I process them. If I get a pic I want to keep I save it and back it up on the computer. I don't really save emails, either (I empty my trash every couple of months) EDIT: added email comparison
- godelski 6y ago
  I'm not sure the email comparison is good. We usually do a lot of business via email. So it makes sense to have records. Whereas texting we are just casually having conversations. Most people don't use it for business, though I'm sure some do. I do completely understand archiving specific texts (sorry if this wasn't clear in my original statement), but the mass saving is weird to me. It feels akin to having a conversation with my friend and them just pulling out a microphone and recording our conversation. And then when asking why the answer is "for my records" or "it's my data". And I'm accused of being the weird one. I guess I just fundamentally don't understand.
pseudalopex 6y ago
Saving history doesn't have to mean saving every message.