5 ms·

We should definitely not continue Apple's approach of soldering every damn component, even if it comes at the cost of performance

nomel 6y ago
> even if it comes at the cost of performance Why? What's the purpose of artificially limiting performance when one doesn't need the upgradability? I've, personally, never upgraded the RAM on any system I've built or carried it to a new motherboard with a new socket. I'm absolutely the target audience for this. I would love this increased performance, as long as it wasn't some surprise. Having the extra plastic on the motherboard is literally e-waste for me. Don't touch my PCI-e slots though.
- ksk 6y ago
  Components have flaws, or they break down over time, and soldering components hampers repair and reuse.
  - nomel 6y ago
    I suggest you look up "integrated circuits" and "system on a chip", which is where all of our performance/power improvements have come from. You're in for a shock when it comes to repairability!
  - vondro 6y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted, it's completely true! If the SSD in my computer dies, I can just buy another one for cheap (500GB for what, 80 dollars?). If the SSD in my Macbook/Mac Mini dies, either I can buy a new motherboard, or more likely, a new device. It is not economical nor ecological. Also, paying 200 dollars for additional 256GB of storage? WTF.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Used to be I'd upgrade my MBP memory and hard drive to eek out one more year between upgrades. The drive could always come back and be reused as a portable drive, and the best memory for an old machine typically was cheap enough by then that it wasn't that big of a deal.
- schrijver 6y ago
  The best present is receiving something you never knew you needed until you get it, so I love giving RAM (and SSD) for birthdays! That you can keep the same computer but that it simply becomes faster is a nice surprise for many.
sliken 6y ago
Dunno, increasingly with machine learning, more cores, GPUs, etc the bottleneck is the memory system. How much are you willing to pay for a dimm slot? Personally I'd rather have half the latency, more bandwidth, and 4x the memory channels instead of being able to expand ram mid life. However I would want the option to buy 16, 32, and 64GB up front, unlike the current M1 systems that are 8 or 16GB.
- gggmaster 6y ago
  Those extra memory will cost you an arm and a leg.
  - sliken 6y ago
    My understanding is that the LPDDR4x chips cost less per GB than the random chips you find in the common dimms. There's also costs (board space, part cost, motherboard layers, and layout complexity) for dimm slots. Sure manufacturers might try to charge significantly more than market price for on the motherboard RAM, but it's an opportunity to increase their profit margin and ASP. Random 2x16GB dimms on newegg cost $150 per 32GB. Apparently LPDDR are easier to route to, require less power, and cost less for the same amount of ram. I'd happy pay $500 for a motherboard with 64GB of LPDDR4x-4266. Seems like Asus, Gigabyte, Tyan, Supermicro and friends would MUCH rather sell a $500 motherboard with ram than a $150 motherboard without.
    - ksec 6y ago
      Normal rate ( Not Contract Price ) for LPDDR4 / LPDDR4X and LPDDR5 is roughly double the cost of DRAM per GB. Depending on Channels and package, the one used in M1 is likely even more expensive as they fit 4 channel per chip. DIMM and Board Space adds very little to the Total BOM.
      - sliken 6y ago
        Ah, I had heard differently, for the same clock rate? In any case the apple parts are from what I can tell are: https://www.skhynix.com/products.do?lang=eng&ct1=36&ct2=40&ct3=&rc=auto https://www.skhynix.com/products.do?lang=eng&ct1=36&ct2=40&c... In particular this one: https://www.skhynix.com/products.view.do?vseq=2271&cseq=77 https://www.skhynix.com/products.view.do?vseq=2271&cseq=77
beaner 6y ago
Maybe for some consumer devices we should try it? Clearly the results are excellent. Most people don't open up and modify their laptops.
simonh 6y ago
If you don’t want it, just don’t buy it, but please don’t tell other people what they should or should not like or need.
- ksk 6y ago
  Apple's (and everyone elses') anti-repair stance (both in terms of design and in policy) is harming the environment and generating tons of e-waste. Whats wrong with expressing a view that helps the planet?
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Yet it’s Apple’s devices that last the longest and have the highest resale values.
    - ksk 6y ago
      Hermes handbags also have high resale value. That tells us nothing. Apple's anti-repair approach absolutely harms the environment. Certainly they are not alone in this, many/most electronics these days are irreparable. But Apple is actively hostile to the repair industry, which makes them more deserving of criticism.
      - the-dude 6y ago
        Funny, the only refurbished computer, phone & tablet chain in NL has a pure Apple offering.
      - zepto 6y ago
        The repair industry in this case is hostile to the environment. They are incentivized to want computers to break so that they can sell repair services. It turns out that soldering parts in place makes them less likely to break than a socket whose connections can oxidize or come loose. The tiny number of devices that can’t be repaired because of soldered components, is dwarfed by the number of devices that never broke in the first place because of soldered components.
dan1234 6y ago
Unfortunately, even intel’s white label laptop specs soldered RAM, so I expect the trend to continue in low/mid range PC laptops. https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21573577/intel-nuc-m15-laptop-news-specs-features-price https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21573577/intel-nuc-m15-l...

nomel 6y ago

> even if it comes at the cost of performance Why? What's the purpose of artificially limiting performance when one doesn't need the upgradability? I've, personally, never upgraded the RAM on any system I've built or carried it to a new motherboard with a new socket. I'm absolutely the target audience for this. I would love this increased performance, as long as it wasn't some surprise. Having the extra plastic on the motherboard is literally e-waste for me. Don't touch my PCI-e slots though.

ksk 6y ago
Components have flaws, or they break down over time, and soldering components hampers repair and reuse.
- nomel 6y ago
  I suggest you look up "integrated circuits" and "system on a chip", which is where all of our performance/power improvements have come from. You're in for a shock when it comes to repairability!
- vondro 6y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted, it's completely true! If the SSD in my computer dies, I can just buy another one for cheap (500GB for what, 80 dollars?). If the SSD in my Macbook/Mac Mini dies, either I can buy a new motherboard, or more likely, a new device. It is not economical nor ecological. Also, paying 200 dollars for additional 256GB of storage? WTF.
hinkley 6y ago
Used to be I'd upgrade my MBP memory and hard drive to eek out one more year between upgrades. The drive could always come back and be reused as a portable drive, and the best memory for an old machine typically was cheap enough by then that it wasn't that big of a deal.
schrijver 6y ago
The best present is receiving something you never knew you needed until you get it, so I love giving RAM (and SSD) for birthdays! That you can keep the same computer but that it simply becomes faster is a nice surprise for many.

sliken 6y ago

Dunno, increasingly with machine learning, more cores, GPUs, etc the bottleneck is the memory system. How much are you willing to pay for a dimm slot? Personally I'd rather have half the latency, more bandwidth, and 4x the memory channels instead of being able to expand ram mid life. However I would want the option to buy 16, 32, and 64GB up front, unlike the current M1 systems that are 8 or 16GB.

gggmaster 6y ago
Those extra memory will cost you an arm and a leg.
- sliken 6y ago
  My understanding is that the LPDDR4x chips cost less per GB than the random chips you find in the common dimms. There's also costs (board space, part cost, motherboard layers, and layout complexity) for dimm slots. Sure manufacturers might try to charge significantly more than market price for on the motherboard RAM, but it's an opportunity to increase their profit margin and ASP. Random 2x16GB dimms on newegg cost $150 per 32GB. Apparently LPDDR are easier to route to, require less power, and cost less for the same amount of ram. I'd happy pay $500 for a motherboard with 64GB of LPDDR4x-4266. Seems like Asus, Gigabyte, Tyan, Supermicro and friends would MUCH rather sell a $500 motherboard with ram than a $150 motherboard without.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Normal rate ( Not Contract Price ) for LPDDR4 / LPDDR4X and LPDDR5 is roughly double the cost of DRAM per GB. Depending on Channels and package, the one used in M1 is likely even more expensive as they fit 4 channel per chip. DIMM and Board Space adds very little to the Total BOM.
    - sliken 6y ago
      Ah, I had heard differently, for the same clock rate? In any case the apple parts are from what I can tell are: https://www.skhynix.com/products.do?lang=eng&ct1=36&ct2=40&ct3=&rc=auto https://www.skhynix.com/products.do?lang=eng&ct1=36&ct2=40&c... In particular this one: https://www.skhynix.com/products.view.do?vseq=2271&cseq=77 https://www.skhynix.com/products.view.do?vseq=2271&cseq=77

beaner 6y ago

Maybe for some consumer devices we should try it? Clearly the results are excellent. Most people don't open up and modify their laptops.

simonh 6y ago

If you don’t want it, just don’t buy it, but please don’t tell other people what they should or should not like or need.

ksk 6y ago
Apple's (and everyone elses') anti-repair stance (both in terms of design and in policy) is harming the environment and generating tons of e-waste. Whats wrong with expressing a view that helps the planet?
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Yet it’s Apple’s devices that last the longest and have the highest resale values.
  - ksk 6y ago
    Hermes handbags also have high resale value. That tells us nothing. Apple's anti-repair approach absolutely harms the environment. Certainly they are not alone in this, many/most electronics these days are irreparable. But Apple is actively hostile to the repair industry, which makes them more deserving of criticism.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      Funny, the only refurbished computer, phone & tablet chain in NL has a pure Apple offering.
    - zepto 6y ago
      The repair industry in this case is hostile to the environment. They are incentivized to want computers to break so that they can sell repair services. It turns out that soldering parts in place makes them less likely to break than a socket whose connections can oxidize or come loose. The tiny number of devices that can’t be repaired because of soldered components, is dwarfed by the number of devices that never broke in the first place because of soldered components.

dan1234 6y ago

Unfortunately, even intel’s white label laptop specs soldered RAM, so I expect the trend to continue in low/mid range PC laptops. https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21573577/intel-nuc-m15-laptop-news-specs-features-price https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21573577/intel-nuc-m15-l...