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I'm not an expert here, just going by the articles I've read on this topic recently. That said... > Its just LPDDR4. HBM is a different thing. Hmm, Apple refe

I'm not an expert here, just going by the articles I've read on this topic recently. That said... > Its just LPDDR4. HBM is a different thing. Hmm, Apple refers to it as High Bandwidth Memory. The Register[1] refers to it as "High Bandwidth Memory" and also: "This uses 4266 MT/s LPDDR4X SDRAM (synchronous DRAM) and is mounted with the SoC using a system-in-package (SiP) design." Which implies to me that some kinds of LPDDR is indeed HBM and that what's on the M1 isn't something which can be replaced by drop in RAM. > That's not the advantage. Hmm, again quoting The Reg here because I think it's a fairly independent source on Apple hardware. "In other words, this memory is shared between the three different compute engines and their cores. The three don't have their own individual memory resources, which would need data moved into them." Maybe I didn't express this clearly enough above. > AMD / Intel have been connecting L3 caches to their iGPU solutions for over a decade now. My point above wasn't that Apple invented this idea. It was that the idea doesn't scale well. Who invented it doesn't really matter. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/19/apple_m1_high_bandwidth_memory_performance/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/19/apple_m1_high_bandwid...

wtallis 6y ago
Apple is using high-bandwidth memory, but not High Bandwidth Memory (HBM).
dragontamer 6y ago
You're right. The Register article says that. The Register article says that because they're parroting Apple's marketing. I don't fault The Register for copying Apple. I fault Apple for being misleading with their arguments. LPDDR4x is NOT HBM2. HBM2 is a completely different technology. "High Bandwidth Memory", or HBM2 (since we're on version 2 of that tech now), HBM2 is on the order of 1024-bit lanes per chip-stack. It is extremely misleading for Apple to issue a press-release claiming they have "high bandwidth memory". HBM2 is the stuff of supercomputers: the Fujitsu A64FX. Ampere A100 GPUs. Etc. etc. That's not the stuff you'd see in a phone or laptop. > "In other words, this memory is shared between the three different compute engines and their cores. The three don't have their own individual memory resources, which would need data moved into them." It would be colossally stupid for the iGPU, CPU, and Neural Engine to communicate over RAM. I don't even need to look at the design: they almost certainly share Last-Level Cache. LLC communications are faster than RAM communications. From the perspective of the iGPU / CPU / Neural Engine, its all the same (because the "cache" pretends to be RAM anyway). But in actuality, the bandwidth and latency characteristics of that communication are almost certainly optimized to be cache-to-cache transfers, without ever leaving the chip.
- kllrnohj 6y ago
  > HBM2 is the stuff of supercomputers: the Fujitsu A64FX. Ampere A100 GPUs. Etc. etc. That's not the stuff you'd see in a phone or laptop. It also made an appearance on some consumer discreet GPUs, notably the Vega 56, Vega 64, and Radeon VII.
  - AlphaSite 6y ago
    You can get in apples current laptop GPUs as well, navi 10 + HBM.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    No wonder nobody knows about it, if they're keeping it discreet.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > "High Bandwidth Memory", or HBM2 (since we're on version 2 of that tech now), HBM2 is on the order of 1024-bit lanes per chip-stack. It is extremely misleading for Apple to issue a press-release claiming they have "high bandwidth memory". Considering how few people know what HBM2 is, the idea that Apple is trying to make any claims that their solution uses HBM2 seems weird.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > Considering how few people know what HBM2 is, the idea that Apple is trying to make any claims that their solution uses HBM2 seems weird. https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ Apple absolutely knows what HBM2 is. They've literally got products with HBM2 in it. Note: LPDDR4x RAM is typically called "Low Power" RAM, in fact, that's exactly what LPDDR4x is for. Its designed to be a low-power consumption ram for extended battery life. It takes a special level of marketing (ie: misleading / misdirection) to buy two chips of "low power" RAM, and try to sell it as "high bandwidth RAM".
- danaris 6y ago
  While I can certainly understand a certain amount of frustration at Apple for using phrasing that has been used as an official marketing term, I also have to say that I don't think too highly of whoever came up with the idea that "HBM" should be an exclusive marketing term in the first place, when it's a very straightforward description of memory that includes, but is not limited to, memory within that specific label. Based on what Apple's doing, it seems perfectly legitimate and reasonable to refer to the memory in the M1 Macs as "high-bandwidth memory", even if its lanes are not 1024 bits wide.
gameswithgo 6y ago
It is just LPDDR4X, it is normal ram. Claims of something special about the ram are marketing untruths, other than it being high end laptop ram, like you would get on a high end x86 laptop too. That it is packaged right next to the cpu may reduce latency by half a nanosecond out of ~60.
- sgerenser 6y ago
  Which (non-Apple) laptops are shipping with 4266 MT/s LPDDR4X RAM?
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    Another discussion thread has noted that LPDDR4x can be 16x bits or 32x bits. DDR4 is always 64-bits. Two channel DDR4 is 128-bits. So right there, 2-channel x 64bits DDR4 is the same bus-width as the 8-channel x 16bits LPDDR4x. With that being said, 8-channel LPDDR4x is more than most I've heard of. But its not really that much more than DDR4 configurations. 128-bit (2-channel) DDR4 at 3200 MT/s is 51 GB/s bandwidth. 4266 MT/s x 128-bits (8-channel) LPDDR4x is 68GB/s. An advantage, but nothing insurmountable. -------- A Threadripper can easily run 4-channel 3200 MT/s (100GB/s). Xeons are 6-channel. GPUs are 500GB/s to 800GB/s tier. Supercomputer-GPUs (A100) and Supercomputer-CPUs (A64Fx) are 1000+GB/s. ---- HBM2 has a MINIMUM speed of 250GB/s (single stack, 1024-bits), and often is run in x4 configurations for 1000GB/s. That's what "high bandwidth" means today. Not this ~68GB/s tier Apple is bragging about, but instead HBM is about breaking the PB/s barrier in bandwidth. -------- But yes, I'll agree that Apple's 68GB/s configuration is an incremental (but not substantial) upgrade over the typical 40GB/s to 50GB/s DDR4 stuff being used today.
  - erik 6y ago
    Some brief googling tells me: - Razer Book 13 - Dell XPS 13 9310 2-in-1 - MSI Prestige 14 EVO - Intel's new whitebox laptop platform I think I've read that there are now Ryzen laptops shipping with LPDDR4x as well. It's awesome that Apple is using ram with this much bandwidth, but it's not exclusive.
    - 6y ago
kllrnohj 6y ago
> "This uses 4266 MT/s LPDDR4X SDRAM (synchronous DRAM) and is mounted with the SoC using a system-in-package (SiP) design." > Which implies to me that some kinds of LPDDR is indeed HBM and that what's on the M1 isn't something which can be replaced by drop in RAM. Sibling comment already outlined that HBM is unique & different from LPDDR. Using LPDDR means it's definitely not HBM. But you can definitely hit LPDDR4 at 4266 MT/s speeds with drop-in RAM. That's DDR5, which in the "initial" spec goes all the way to 6400 MT/s. More relevantly, DDR5-4800 (so 4800 MT/s) modules are among the first to actually be manufactured: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16142/ddr5-is-coming-first-64gb-ddr5-4800-modules-from-sk-hynix https://www.anandtech.com/show/16142/ddr5-is-coming-first-64...

wtallis 6y ago

Apple is using high-bandwidth memory, but not High Bandwidth Memory (HBM).

dragontamer 6y ago

You're right. The Register article says that. The Register article says that because they're parroting Apple's marketing. I don't fault The Register for copying Apple. I fault Apple for being misleading with their arguments. LPDDR4x is NOT HBM2. HBM2 is a completely different technology. "High Bandwidth Memory", or HBM2 (since we're on version 2 of that tech now), HBM2 is on the order of 1024-bit lanes per chip-stack. It is extremely misleading for Apple to issue a press-release claiming they have "high bandwidth memory". HBM2 is the stuff of supercomputers: the Fujitsu A64FX. Ampere A100 GPUs. Etc. etc. That's not the stuff you'd see in a phone or laptop. > "In other words, this memory is shared between the three different compute engines and their cores. The three don't have their own individual memory resources, which would need data moved into them." It would be colossally stupid for the iGPU, CPU, and Neural Engine to communicate over RAM. I don't even need to look at the design: they almost certainly share Last-Level Cache. LLC communications are faster than RAM communications. From the perspective of the iGPU / CPU / Neural Engine, its all the same (because the "cache" pretends to be RAM anyway). But in actuality, the bandwidth and latency characteristics of that communication are almost certainly optimized to be cache-to-cache transfers, without ever leaving the chip.

kllrnohj 6y ago
> HBM2 is the stuff of supercomputers: the Fujitsu A64FX. Ampere A100 GPUs. Etc. etc. That's not the stuff you'd see in a phone or laptop. It also made an appearance on some consumer discreet GPUs, notably the Vega 56, Vega 64, and Radeon VII.
- AlphaSite 6y ago
  You can get in apples current laptop GPUs as well, navi 10 + HBM.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  No wonder nobody knows about it, if they're keeping it discreet.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> "High Bandwidth Memory", or HBM2 (since we're on version 2 of that tech now), HBM2 is on the order of 1024-bit lanes per chip-stack. It is extremely misleading for Apple to issue a press-release claiming they have "high bandwidth memory". Considering how few people know what HBM2 is, the idea that Apple is trying to make any claims that their solution uses HBM2 seems weird.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > Considering how few people know what HBM2 is, the idea that Apple is trying to make any claims that their solution uses HBM2 seems weird. https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ Apple absolutely knows what HBM2 is. They've literally got products with HBM2 in it. Note: LPDDR4x RAM is typically called "Low Power" RAM, in fact, that's exactly what LPDDR4x is for. Its designed to be a low-power consumption ram for extended battery life. It takes a special level of marketing (ie: misleading / misdirection) to buy two chips of "low power" RAM, and try to sell it as "high bandwidth RAM".
danaris 6y ago
While I can certainly understand a certain amount of frustration at Apple for using phrasing that has been used as an official marketing term, I also have to say that I don't think too highly of whoever came up with the idea that "HBM" should be an exclusive marketing term in the first place, when it's a very straightforward description of memory that includes, but is not limited to, memory within that specific label. Based on what Apple's doing, it seems perfectly legitimate and reasonable to refer to the memory in the M1 Macs as "high-bandwidth memory", even if its lanes are not 1024 bits wide.

gameswithgo 6y ago

It is just LPDDR4X, it is normal ram. Claims of something special about the ram are marketing untruths, other than it being high end laptop ram, like you would get on a high end x86 laptop too. That it is packaged right next to the cpu may reduce latency by half a nanosecond out of ~60.

sgerenser 6y ago
Which (non-Apple) laptops are shipping with 4266 MT/s LPDDR4X RAM?
- dragontamer 6y ago
  Another discussion thread has noted that LPDDR4x can be 16x bits or 32x bits. DDR4 is always 64-bits. Two channel DDR4 is 128-bits. So right there, 2-channel x 64bits DDR4 is the same bus-width as the 8-channel x 16bits LPDDR4x. With that being said, 8-channel LPDDR4x is more than most I've heard of. But its not really that much more than DDR4 configurations. 128-bit (2-channel) DDR4 at 3200 MT/s is 51 GB/s bandwidth. 4266 MT/s x 128-bits (8-channel) LPDDR4x is 68GB/s. An advantage, but nothing insurmountable. -------- A Threadripper can easily run 4-channel 3200 MT/s (100GB/s). Xeons are 6-channel. GPUs are 500GB/s to 800GB/s tier. Supercomputer-GPUs (A100) and Supercomputer-CPUs (A64Fx) are 1000+GB/s. ---- HBM2 has a MINIMUM speed of 250GB/s (single stack, 1024-bits), and often is run in x4 configurations for 1000GB/s. That's what "high bandwidth" means today. Not this ~68GB/s tier Apple is bragging about, but instead HBM is about breaking the PB/s barrier in bandwidth. -------- But yes, I'll agree that Apple's 68GB/s configuration is an incremental (but not substantial) upgrade over the typical 40GB/s to 50GB/s DDR4 stuff being used today.
- erik 6y ago
  Some brief googling tells me: - Razer Book 13 - Dell XPS 13 9310 2-in-1 - MSI Prestige 14 EVO - Intel's new whitebox laptop platform I think I've read that there are now Ryzen laptops shipping with LPDDR4x as well. It's awesome that Apple is using ram with this much bandwidth, but it's not exclusive.
  - 6y ago

kllrnohj 6y ago

> "This uses 4266 MT/s LPDDR4X SDRAM (synchronous DRAM) and is mounted with the SoC using a system-in-package (SiP) design." > Which implies to me that some kinds of LPDDR is indeed HBM and that what's on the M1 isn't something which can be replaced by drop in RAM. Sibling comment already outlined that HBM is unique & different from LPDDR. Using LPDDR means it's definitely not HBM. But you can definitely hit LPDDR4 at 4266 MT/s speeds with drop-in RAM. That's DDR5, which in the "initial" spec goes all the way to 6400 MT/s. More relevantly, DDR5-4800 (so 4800 MT/s) modules are among the first to actually be manufactured: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16142/ddr5-is-coming-first-64gb-ddr5-4800-modules-from-sk-hynix https://www.anandtech.com/show/16142/ddr5-is-coming-first-64...