5 ms·

Work ethic ok but talent is domain-specific, isn't it?

beagle3 6y ago
Read on Magnus Carlsen[0] and Josh Waitzkin[1] - both have top spots in other fields, (and I'm sure others do too, these are from memory). Either talent is less specific than you'd think, or work ethic is more important than you'd think. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen#Personal_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen#Personal_life [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Waitzkin#Martial_arts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Waitzkin#Martial_arts
- ofrzeta 6y ago
  I don't see this with Carlsen. Fantasy football? Well ... Waitzkin may be successful in martial arts but still that's the exception not the norm. Also I would claim that talent is domain-specific insofar that very few people have a mental and a physical talent at the same time. For instance there are professional athletes who are very good in some other sport but I know of no one who is also very good at chess.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    You may discard Fantasy Football, but it is not easy to be a top player - there are thousands of people who spend a few hours a day practicing, and have been for years. It’s been a while, but when Magnusen rose from “not playing”’to the top spot it was impressive and unusual. Emanuel Lasker was iirc a very noted mathematician. As I mentioned, this is from memory. I’ve known a person who had both made the national swim team as a 19-year old, and was a national bridge champion in his thirties (not in the US). I don’t know to separate talent from work ethics, but my layman’s impression is that that these aren’t simple, and definitely not independent, measures across fields.
bsder 6y ago
The Polgar sisters are the counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r
- ofrzeta 6y ago
  In what way are they? I can only see that they are good at chess.
  - bsder 6y ago
    The point is that they didn't come from some "Chess Prodigy" family. There wasn't some "talent" laying there that they picked up. And, even among the sisters, Judit wasn't the one with the most "talent". Judit's level and achievements were due to training and persistence.
    - ofrzeta 6y ago
      Still they might have a talent for chess and not for ballet for instance. It might be otherwise but that was my claim and the Polgars don't refute it. Also the Wikipedia page says she was a "chess prodigy". From my personal experience I strongly doubt that you can make every five year old child a chess player who wins blind matches against grown-ups only through hard work.
      - bsder 6y ago
        "Prodigy" simply means you hit your 10,000 hours as a child. And the "youngest grandmaster" title simply keeps moving downward, so apparently you can convert random 5 year olds into chess experts. I really don't understand why people still cling to the notion of "talent" in intellectual pursuits. It's pretty clear that "number of hours" is what places you in the top echelons.
        ofrzeta 6y ago
        When you assume 8 hours a day straight work 10.000 hours means 3.42 years including weekends. I'll claim that's impossible (not to say inhumane) to do with a child.
        bsder 6y ago

Read on Magnus Carlsen[0] and Josh Waitzkin[1] - both have top spots in other fields, (and I'm sure others do too, these are from memory). Either talent is less specific than you'd think, or work ethic is more important than you'd think. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen#Personal_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen#Personal_life [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Waitzkin#Martial_arts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Waitzkin#Martial_arts

ofrzeta 6y ago
I don't see this with Carlsen. Fantasy football? Well ... Waitzkin may be successful in martial arts but still that's the exception not the norm. Also I would claim that talent is domain-specific insofar that very few people have a mental and a physical talent at the same time. For instance there are professional athletes who are very good in some other sport but I know of no one who is also very good at chess.
- beagle3 6y ago
  You may discard Fantasy Football, but it is not easy to be a top player - there are thousands of people who spend a few hours a day practicing, and have been for years. It’s been a while, but when Magnusen rose from “not playing”’to the top spot it was impressive and unusual. Emanuel Lasker was iirc a very noted mathematician. As I mentioned, this is from memory. I’ve known a person who had both made the national swim team as a 19-year old, and was a national bridge champion in his thirties (not in the US). I don’t know to separate talent from work ethics, but my layman’s impression is that that these aren’t simple, and definitely not independent, measures across fields.

bsder 6y ago

The Polgar sisters are the counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r

ofrzeta 6y ago
In what way are they? I can only see that they are good at chess.
- bsder 6y ago
  The point is that they didn't come from some "Chess Prodigy" family. There wasn't some "talent" laying there that they picked up. And, even among the sisters, Judit wasn't the one with the most "talent". Judit's level and achievements were due to training and persistence.
  - ofrzeta 6y ago
    Still they might have a talent for chess and not for ballet for instance. It might be otherwise but that was my claim and the Polgars don't refute it. Also the Wikipedia page says she was a "chess prodigy". From my personal experience I strongly doubt that you can make every five year old child a chess player who wins blind matches against grown-ups only through hard work.
    - bsder 6y ago
      "Prodigy" simply means you hit your 10,000 hours as a child. And the "youngest grandmaster" title simply keeps moving downward, so apparently you can convert random 5 year olds into chess experts. I really don't understand why people still cling to the notion of "talent" in intellectual pursuits. It's pretty clear that "number of hours" is what places you in the top echelons.
      - ofrzeta 6y ago
        When you assume 8 hours a day straight work 10.000 hours means 3.42 years including weekends. I'll claim that's impossible (not to say inhumane) to do with a child.
        bsder 6y ago