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There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. You can of course distinguish accents by how close they are to some st

There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. You can of course distinguish accents by how close they are to some standard accent, but English doesn't even have a single standard accent. The idea that "some people have accents, but I speak the pure (or a purer version of the) language" plays right into the notion of accentism.

freeflight 6y ago
Tho German has standardized variants for Germany, Austria and Switzerland, regulated by the international body of of the Council for German Orthography. Imho it's also kind of reductive to make "accentism" out as something purely discriminatory, when the matter of fact is that particularly a lot of regional accents are often unintelligible for people who are not familiar with them, even when they are native speakers of the language without ascent. In Germany one can grow up and live in the middle of a state for their whole lives, and still heavily struggle with understanding the local accent of a smaller nearby town. And while that is certainly an enrichment on the cultural diversity side to have that many, and so different, accents, it also makes communication more difficult, more prone to fail, thus ultimately more likely for misunderstandings to happen.
- Tainnor 6y ago
  There are standardised variants of grammar and orthography, not necessarily of pronunciation. There is a more loose standard (never written down anywhere explicitly I believe, not surprisingly, since who's gonna read a phonetic treatise?) in Germany in terms of pronunciation, which is certainly what most people in the media, try to speak, but you won't have any such luck in Switzerland, neither with actual Swiss German, nor with the way Swiss people pronounce Standard German (it's interesting: I can usually roughly tell where a Swiss person is from when they speak German). Not understanding, or having more trouble with, certain accents doesn't make you an "accentist", but thinking that this is a fault on the other person's side is. > In Germany one can grow up and live in the middle of a state for their whole lives, and still heavily struggle with understanding the local accent of a smaller nearby town. Does this really still happen nowadays? > And while that is certainly an enrichment on the cultural diversity side to have that many, and so different, accents, it also makes communication more difficult, more prone to fail, thus ultimately more likely for misunderstandings to happen. Sure, but I guess that's the price you pay for diversity, one I'm personally glad to pay.
  - mpol 6y ago
    "Does this really still happen nowadays?" Not a direct answer to your question, but I live in the Netherlands which is a lot smaller than Germany, about 300x200 km. Every village has their own accent/dialect and every region often has their own words or even sub-language. I live 50km from Fryslan, but I cannot make any sense of Frysian language. The same for Limburg or Flanders when people have a deep accent. Sometimes people with such a strong accent get on tv, and they provide subtitles, otherwise it is just incomprehensible to most Dutch people. It is often a culture of relating to someone, like "We are from the same background". At my chess club there are 3 persons that know Frysian, when they decide to talk Frysian, it is better to just walk away :)
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      Frisian isn't too relevant to a discussion of Dutch accents, because Frisian is universally considered to be a different language than Dutch. After all, Frisian and Dutch split off from their common ancestor already in the first millennium AD.
      - ninju 6y ago
        And I guess even the spelling of the language name is up to debate ?
        Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        The English Wikipedia article on Frisian doesn't even list "Frysian" as an alternative spelling, so this is an error on the part of the OP.
        mumblemumble 6y ago
        It may not list it as an alternative English spelling, but the page for the main dialect of Frisian does indicate that the language's own name for itself is spelled with a Y. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. Bit of a nitpick, but I think that's only true of so-called native accents. [0] If a community speaks the language natively, in a certain distinctive way, that's called a native accent, and as you say it's meaningless to refer to any native accent as more or less accented than another. (edit I suppose in the extreme cases this might not be true, as a community's dialect might evolve into a distinct language, but that's by the by.) With non-native accents though, the accent is the result of a limited linguistic ability. If you learn French, you'll have less of an English accent as you become more skilled, as the accent is the result of your native English leaking into your French pronunciation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_(sociolinguistics)#Non-native_accents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_(sociolinguistics)#Non-...
- Tainnor 6y ago
  At this point, we're moving into meta-debates about the meaning of the word "accent". But the way most linguists understand the way "accent" is just as a pattern of pronunciation, so even with non-native speakers, they don't have "more" or "less" accent, they rather change their accent to a more native-like accent. case in point: Standard German doesn't pronounce syllable-final "r", so someone who speaks English with a German accent will tend to speak with a non-rhotic accent, as most English accents. If they subsequently move to the US and adopt rhotacism, are they now having "more" or "less" accent? I think the issue is explained quite nicely here: https://web.archive.org/web/20081008000501/http://linguist.emich.edu/ask-ling/accent.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081008000501/http://linguist.e...
- marianov 6y ago
  I've heard people from India say they don't have accent, but so do newyorkers. Being native Spanish speaking, I find easier to harder english accents: - Russian, Italians - English RP (BBC) - "Educated" American English (politicians, etc.) - rural accents from the US - India - Ireland - Australia - UK popular accents
jwalton 6y ago
> There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. Pretty sure what the parent meant by "the more of an accent a person has" was "the more a person's accent deviates from my own andthe majority of my community", but wanted to be more concise (if less precise).
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  I'm guessing you're right, in the context, though, it's not the best shorthand to choose. The unrecognized perception that one's own accent is not actually an accent is the keystone of accentism.
  - Cytobit 6y ago
    > The unrecognized perception that one's own accent is not actually an accent is the keystone of accentism. Is there anything research to support that claim? Seems like it is just a regular tribal thing (us vs them, in-group vs out-group).
theamk 6y ago
English is not my first language, so when I speak, people don’t always understand me. Sometimes I have to repeat words more slowly, or replace words with synonyms. This happens because I do not pronounce the words in the way people around me expect to hear. The explanation above is somewhat long, so I would like to shorten this. I have been saying “I have an accent” instead. Is “accent” the right word to use in this case? If not, which word is?
- jgwil2 6y ago
  Accent is the correct word. > I do not pronounce the words in the way people around me expect to hear. This is an interesting way of putting it - an accent is a collection of linguistic tendencies that together can clue a listener in on your social class, geographical origin, or other biographical information. However, I think it is possible to make a distinction between "having an accent" and simply mispronouncing words. Stressing the wrong syllable is an example of the latter. Both having an accent and mispronouncing words can lead to misunderstandings, but one is easily correctible and the other is not.
- Tainnor 6y ago
  "I have an accent" as a kind of shorthand for "I have a non-standard accent" is in theory fine, since most people know what you mean. The reason I pointed it out, though, is because the reverse direction - "you have an accent, which is why I don't understand you" - especially when directed at actual native speakers implies (even if not intended) some sort of deficiency on the part of the interlocutor.
WalterBright 6y ago
> There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. I assumed it was obvious that I meant "relative to my accent", which is what Europeans have noted as a "California accent".
loco5niner 6y ago
You basically said "everyone has an accent", and this is true. Regarding understandable English though, some accents are MUCH harder to understand than others.
- Tainnor 6y ago
  from your perspective you can't just assume that everyone finds the same accents easy or difficult
  - loco5niner 6y ago
    My perspective is that, for most talks in English, the speaker would want to be understood by native speakers of American English. I do assume (and believe correctly), that the further an accent strays from what you would hear on your standard American news channel, the more difficult it is for the average native speaker of American English to understand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English

freeflight 6y ago

Tho German has standardized variants for Germany, Austria and Switzerland, regulated by the international body of of the Council for German Orthography. Imho it's also kind of reductive to make "accentism" out as something purely discriminatory, when the matter of fact is that particularly a lot of regional accents are often unintelligible for people who are not familiar with them, even when they are native speakers of the language without ascent. In Germany one can grow up and live in the middle of a state for their whole lives, and still heavily struggle with understanding the local accent of a smaller nearby town. And while that is certainly an enrichment on the cultural diversity side to have that many, and so different, accents, it also makes communication more difficult, more prone to fail, thus ultimately more likely for misunderstandings to happen.

Tainnor 6y ago
There are standardised variants of grammar and orthography, not necessarily of pronunciation. There is a more loose standard (never written down anywhere explicitly I believe, not surprisingly, since who's gonna read a phonetic treatise?) in Germany in terms of pronunciation, which is certainly what most people in the media, try to speak, but you won't have any such luck in Switzerland, neither with actual Swiss German, nor with the way Swiss people pronounce Standard German (it's interesting: I can usually roughly tell where a Swiss person is from when they speak German). Not understanding, or having more trouble with, certain accents doesn't make you an "accentist", but thinking that this is a fault on the other person's side is. > In Germany one can grow up and live in the middle of a state for their whole lives, and still heavily struggle with understanding the local accent of a smaller nearby town. Does this really still happen nowadays? > And while that is certainly an enrichment on the cultural diversity side to have that many, and so different, accents, it also makes communication more difficult, more prone to fail, thus ultimately more likely for misunderstandings to happen. Sure, but I guess that's the price you pay for diversity, one I'm personally glad to pay.
- mpol 6y ago
  "Does this really still happen nowadays?" Not a direct answer to your question, but I live in the Netherlands which is a lot smaller than Germany, about 300x200 km. Every village has their own accent/dialect and every region often has their own words or even sub-language. I live 50km from Fryslan, but I cannot make any sense of Frysian language. The same for Limburg or Flanders when people have a deep accent. Sometimes people with such a strong accent get on tv, and they provide subtitles, otherwise it is just incomprehensible to most Dutch people. It is often a culture of relating to someone, like "We are from the same background". At my chess club there are 3 persons that know Frysian, when they decide to talk Frysian, it is better to just walk away :)
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Frisian isn't too relevant to a discussion of Dutch accents, because Frisian is universally considered to be a different language than Dutch. After all, Frisian and Dutch split off from their common ancestor already in the first millennium AD.
    - ninju 6y ago
      And I guess even the spelling of the language name is up to debate ?
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        The English Wikipedia article on Frisian doesn't even list "Frysian" as an alternative spelling, so this is an error on the part of the OP.
        mumblemumble 6y ago
        It may not list it as an alternative English spelling, but the page for the main dialect of Frisian does indicate that the language's own name for itself is spelled with a Y. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

> There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. Bit of a nitpick, but I think that's only true of so-called native accents. [0] If a community speaks the language natively, in a certain distinctive way, that's called a native accent, and as you say it's meaningless to refer to any native accent as more or less accented than another. (edit I suppose in the extreme cases this might not be true, as a community's dialect might evolve into a distinct language, but that's by the by.) With non-native accents though, the accent is the result of a limited linguistic ability. If you learn French, you'll have less of an English accent as you become more skilled, as the accent is the result of your native English leaking into your French pronunciation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_(sociolinguistics)#Non-native_accents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_(sociolinguistics)#Non-...

Tainnor 6y ago
At this point, we're moving into meta-debates about the meaning of the word "accent". But the way most linguists understand the way "accent" is just as a pattern of pronunciation, so even with non-native speakers, they don't have "more" or "less" accent, they rather change their accent to a more native-like accent. case in point: Standard German doesn't pronounce syllable-final "r", so someone who speaks English with a German accent will tend to speak with a non-rhotic accent, as most English accents. If they subsequently move to the US and adopt rhotacism, are they now having "more" or "less" accent? I think the issue is explained quite nicely here: https://web.archive.org/web/20081008000501/http://linguist.emich.edu/ask-ling/accent.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081008000501/http://linguist.e...
marianov 6y ago
I've heard people from India say they don't have accent, but so do newyorkers. Being native Spanish speaking, I find easier to harder english accents: - Russian, Italians - English RP (BBC) - "Educated" American English (politicians, etc.) - rural accents from the US - India - Ireland - Australia - UK popular accents

jwalton 6y ago

> There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. Pretty sure what the parent meant by "the more of an accent a person has" was "the more a person's accent deviates from my own andthe majority of my community", but wanted to be more concise (if less precise).

mumblemumble 6y ago
I'm guessing you're right, in the context, though, it's not the best shorthand to choose. The unrecognized perception that one's own accent is not actually an accent is the keystone of accentism.
- Cytobit 6y ago
  > The unrecognized perception that one's own accent is not actually an accent is the keystone of accentism. Is there anything research to support that claim? Seems like it is just a regular tribal thing (us vs them, in-group vs out-group).

theamk 6y ago

English is not my first language, so when I speak, people don’t always understand me. Sometimes I have to repeat words more slowly, or replace words with synonyms. This happens because I do not pronounce the words in the way people around me expect to hear. The explanation above is somewhat long, so I would like to shorten this. I have been saying “I have an accent” instead. Is “accent” the right word to use in this case? If not, which word is?

jgwil2 6y ago
Accent is the correct word. > I do not pronounce the words in the way people around me expect to hear. This is an interesting way of putting it - an accent is a collection of linguistic tendencies that together can clue a listener in on your social class, geographical origin, or other biographical information. However, I think it is possible to make a distinction between "having an accent" and simply mispronouncing words. Stressing the wrong syllable is an example of the latter. Both having an accent and mispronouncing words can lead to misunderstandings, but one is easily correctible and the other is not.
Tainnor 6y ago
"I have an accent" as a kind of shorthand for "I have a non-standard accent" is in theory fine, since most people know what you mean. The reason I pointed it out, though, is because the reverse direction - "you have an accent, which is why I don't understand you" - especially when directed at actual native speakers implies (even if not intended) some sort of deficiency on the part of the interlocutor.

WalterBright 6y ago

> There is no such thing as "more" or "less" accent from a purely linguistic point of view. I assumed it was obvious that I meant "relative to my accent", which is what Europeans have noted as a "California accent".

loco5niner 6y ago

You basically said "everyone has an accent", and this is true. Regarding understandable English though, some accents are MUCH harder to understand than others.

Tainnor 6y ago
from your perspective you can't just assume that everyone finds the same accents easy or difficult
- loco5niner 6y ago
  My perspective is that, for most talks in English, the speaker would want to be understood by native speakers of American English. I do assume (and believe correctly), that the further an accent strays from what you would hear on your standard American news channel, the more difficult it is for the average native speaker of American English to understand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English