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I was thinking the same thing, she romanticizes work so much it's kind of.. ..weird. Work is work. Especially if you work for someone else - they pay for your

I was thinking the same thing, she romanticizes work so much it's kind of.. ..weird. Work is work. Especially if you work for someone else - they pay for your time, that is all. Nothing more.

renewiltord 6y ago
Interesting that this is hard to understand. For generations, craftsmen who have dedicated themselves to the art of their craft have existed. Almost all have "worked for someone else". I saw a monk once, on his hands and knees, maintaining the grass at a temple. This is the craft he has dedicated himself to. Others have chosen other things. It is not hard to see why many see their life's work as important to them. That isn't romanticism. That's just a different preference vector. Personally, having read The Remains of The Day, there are certain end results I would consider failure. But clearly men such as Newton did not consider them that.
- romanovcode 6y ago
  I don't know man. I don't see the connection between Newton and building CRUD SaaS apps. In fact I see it funny how one can compare himself to those great scientists like that because he/she built an app.
  - yowlingcat 6y ago
    > In fact I see it funny how one can compare himself to those great scientists like that because he/she built an app. I think I see both sides. On one hand, as someone else said, it's not the building a SaaS app that entrepreneurs are proud of -- it's building the business and building the company. That in and of itself is a lot more impressive to me than building just an app. Is it as impressive and historically significant as the great scientific discoveries of Newton? Maybe, but probably not. Or maybe they are apples and oranges. Suppose Newton had a collaborator who built a giant manufacturing empire with his discoveries. Would those two be comparable in terms of "who was more important", or would comparison simply cease to be meaningful at this point? To your point, maybe that's what makes the Newton comparison somewhat of a non-sequitor -- it's at best a reach.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    That's unsurprising. Those whose preference vector is very different won't see it. After all, the thing you see in Newton is outcome and you don't care for the attempt. But that's not the entirety of it (though it is a significant part) for the craftsman. These craftsmen are driven by the craft itself. So, for instance, while you'd (taking a leap here and guessing) rate it useless for a Theravada monk to master his chanting, there is a portion of it that to him is sufficient to just be good at. A portion apart from the outcome that is just dedicated to the craft itself. If you're not driven by the craft, you likely won't get it. That's okay. The path to living a fulfilling life is to find your preference vector and optimize for it.
- senko 6y ago
  > For generations, craftsmen who have dedicated themselves to the art of their craft have existed. Almost all have "worked for someone else". >> When we only had months of runway left in the bank, there was no work-life balance. We had to work around the clock so that our company could survive. When we were behind on our big product launch, when we’re behind on our revenue goals, when we released nasty bugs to our users, or when our servers were down, there was no work-life balance. This doesn't sound like someone dedicating themselves to the art of their craft, and I would argue that we released nasty bugs is the complete antithesis of what you meant. This sounds like making desparate moves trying to stay alive. To me, a perfect modern example of someone putting the craft above all else (including their family) is Jiro Ono [0]. He does that because he wants to, not because he'd go broke otherwise. I read GP's comment as not critizing craftsmen, but criticizing someone prioritizing the daily grind above their life. And let's face it, startups (or any other business) is 90% daily grind. -- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi
  - rlonn 6y ago
    She's an entrepreneur, and her craft is not really building a product, but building a business. I think that's what really drives her.
    - brabel 6y ago
      She fell into the trap of thinking her business was her life and gave equal weight to both. Quite sad to see... even if she becomes a billionaire and her business an unicorn, when the end comes, will she be happy for what she accomplished? Hardly. It's a pretty universal sentiment that what makes people happy is actually close relationships, friendships, family and helping others (not in exchange for something, like in a business, mind you - but helping for the sake of it). People like her and even the greatest in the field, like Steve Jobs, may lead extraordinary lives in our imaginations, but inside, they almost always feel horrible most of the time (the stress so high they grind their teeth to the point of damaging them as the article mentions) and end up dying sad and lonely.
- keiferski 6y ago
  This is probably traceable to the amorphous nature of modern work. In the past, working all day meant you had a physical result, whether that’s a clean garden or a pile of widgets to sell. These days in the information economy, working all day mostly just gets you more words on a screen. Humans are physical creatures but our contemporary work style treats them as pure spirit. Reminds me of this scene in Margin Call, about the 2009 financial crash: "You're one of the luckiest guys in the world, Sam. You could have been digging ditches all these years." "That's true, and if I had, at least there'd be some holes in the ground to show for it." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtFyP0qy9XU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtFyP0qy9XU
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    This is another traditional view but I find it hard to believe the truth of it because of the strong bias (and personal experience): happy people do not generally know they are happy, unhappy people think that doing a different thing is sufficient for happiness. Personally, I have found fulfillment from menial labour only when I have found no fulfillment from knowledge work. Achievement at the latter beats out the former by a large multiple, and doing the former when I have access to the latter feels me leaving like I've wasted time.
debarshri 6y ago
I think she romanticizes work because she is passionate about what she is working for. Passion gives true grit to survive hard times that fall on a startup. Work is work but when your are passionate about work one would selflessly be committed.
MattGaiser 6y ago
I think it depends on how much you enjoy your work compared to other options available for allocating your time. I had a friend who routinely worked 7 days a week as an intern in technology at a bank. Nowhere near that was expected of him, not even close. Everyone else treated it as a 9 to 5, but he would be online at 3AM on Saturday asking questions on how to do X or whether Y was a good design choice. Obviously this is an extreme example, but some people just love what they are doing and happen to get paid for it and in this case he was in love with his project.
- Xenoamorphous 6y ago
  At what point it becomes unhealthy/ an addiction though? I enjoy having sex, but if I have sex 7 times a day I probably have a problem.
  - yowlingcat 6y ago
    > I have sex 7 times a day I probably have a problem. If that sex results in you having enough children to take care of you and work on/build a family empire with you, you may have more of a solution than a problem. Historically speaking, this happened quite frequently with male royalty.

I was thinking the same thing, she romanticizes work so much it's kind of.. ..weird. Work is work. Especially if you work for someone else - they pay for your time, that is all. Nothing more.

renewiltord 6y ago

Interesting that this is hard to understand. For generations, craftsmen who have dedicated themselves to the art of their craft have existed. Almost all have "worked for someone else". I saw a monk once, on his hands and knees, maintaining the grass at a temple. This is the craft he has dedicated himself to. Others have chosen other things. It is not hard to see why many see their life's work as important to them. That isn't romanticism. That's just a different preference vector. Personally, having read The Remains of The Day, there are certain end results I would consider failure. But clearly men such as Newton did not consider them that.

romanovcode 6y ago
I don't know man. I don't see the connection between Newton and building CRUD SaaS apps. In fact I see it funny how one can compare himself to those great scientists like that because he/she built an app.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  > In fact I see it funny how one can compare himself to those great scientists like that because he/she built an app. I think I see both sides. On one hand, as someone else said, it's not the building a SaaS app that entrepreneurs are proud of -- it's building the business and building the company. That in and of itself is a lot more impressive to me than building just an app. Is it as impressive and historically significant as the great scientific discoveries of Newton? Maybe, but probably not. Or maybe they are apples and oranges. Suppose Newton had a collaborator who built a giant manufacturing empire with his discoveries. Would those two be comparable in terms of "who was more important", or would comparison simply cease to be meaningful at this point? To your point, maybe that's what makes the Newton comparison somewhat of a non-sequitor -- it's at best a reach.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  That's unsurprising. Those whose preference vector is very different won't see it. After all, the thing you see in Newton is outcome and you don't care for the attempt. But that's not the entirety of it (though it is a significant part) for the craftsman. These craftsmen are driven by the craft itself. So, for instance, while you'd (taking a leap here and guessing) rate it useless for a Theravada monk to master his chanting, there is a portion of it that to him is sufficient to just be good at. A portion apart from the outcome that is just dedicated to the craft itself. If you're not driven by the craft, you likely won't get it. That's okay. The path to living a fulfilling life is to find your preference vector and optimize for it.
senko 6y ago
> For generations, craftsmen who have dedicated themselves to the art of their craft have existed. Almost all have "worked for someone else". >> When we only had months of runway left in the bank, there was no work-life balance. We had to work around the clock so that our company could survive. When we were behind on our big product launch, when we’re behind on our revenue goals, when we released nasty bugs to our users, or when our servers were down, there was no work-life balance. This doesn't sound like someone dedicating themselves to the art of their craft, and I would argue that we released nasty bugs is the complete antithesis of what you meant. This sounds like making desparate moves trying to stay alive. To me, a perfect modern example of someone putting the craft above all else (including their family) is Jiro Ono [0]. He does that because he wants to, not because he'd go broke otherwise. I read GP's comment as not critizing craftsmen, but criticizing someone prioritizing the daily grind above their life. And let's face it, startups (or any other business) is 90% daily grind. -- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi
- rlonn 6y ago
  She's an entrepreneur, and her craft is not really building a product, but building a business. I think that's what really drives her.
  - brabel 6y ago
    She fell into the trap of thinking her business was her life and gave equal weight to both. Quite sad to see... even if she becomes a billionaire and her business an unicorn, when the end comes, will she be happy for what she accomplished? Hardly. It's a pretty universal sentiment that what makes people happy is actually close relationships, friendships, family and helping others (not in exchange for something, like in a business, mind you - but helping for the sake of it). People like her and even the greatest in the field, like Steve Jobs, may lead extraordinary lives in our imaginations, but inside, they almost always feel horrible most of the time (the stress so high they grind their teeth to the point of damaging them as the article mentions) and end up dying sad and lonely.
keiferski 6y ago
This is probably traceable to the amorphous nature of modern work. In the past, working all day meant you had a physical result, whether that’s a clean garden or a pile of widgets to sell. These days in the information economy, working all day mostly just gets you more words on a screen. Humans are physical creatures but our contemporary work style treats them as pure spirit. Reminds me of this scene in Margin Call, about the 2009 financial crash: "You're one of the luckiest guys in the world, Sam. You could have been digging ditches all these years." "That's true, and if I had, at least there'd be some holes in the ground to show for it." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtFyP0qy9XU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtFyP0qy9XU
- renewiltord 6y ago
  This is another traditional view but I find it hard to believe the truth of it because of the strong bias (and personal experience): happy people do not generally know they are happy, unhappy people think that doing a different thing is sufficient for happiness. Personally, I have found fulfillment from menial labour only when I have found no fulfillment from knowledge work. Achievement at the latter beats out the former by a large multiple, and doing the former when I have access to the latter feels me leaving like I've wasted time.

debarshri 6y ago

I think she romanticizes work because she is passionate about what she is working for. Passion gives true grit to survive hard times that fall on a startup. Work is work but when your are passionate about work one would selflessly be committed.

MattGaiser 6y ago

I think it depends on how much you enjoy your work compared to other options available for allocating your time. I had a friend who routinely worked 7 days a week as an intern in technology at a bank. Nowhere near that was expected of him, not even close. Everyone else treated it as a 9 to 5, but he would be online at 3AM on Saturday asking questions on how to do X or whether Y was a good design choice. Obviously this is an extreme example, but some people just love what they are doing and happen to get paid for it and in this case he was in love with his project.

Xenoamorphous 6y ago
At what point it becomes unhealthy/ an addiction though? I enjoy having sex, but if I have sex 7 times a day I probably have a problem.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  > I have sex 7 times a day I probably have a problem. If that sex results in you having enough children to take care of you and work on/build a family empire with you, you may have more of a solution than a problem. Historically speaking, this happened quite frequently with male royalty.