6 ms·

No, not even slightly.

ornornor 6y ago
Ok..? I’m not talking within the US where someone could move to the higher COL city and get paid more for the same output (if it made financial sense, after living expenses etc) but about people who can’t move countries because they’ll never get a visa for instance. How is it fair, then, that a SV engineer gets paid 200k to produce software, and her colleague in Turkey gets paid a tenth of that for the same output? It’s not because they’re producing less valuable code, the company sells the product for the same price to anyone anywhere. But the Turkish engineer is basically told by the company that because she’s stuck there and she can’t move elsewhere, then it’s normal to get paid a tenth of her SV colleague. How is that fair?
- bbarnett 6y ago
  Discussing social imbalances, when referring to fiscal concerns of a company in a free-market economy, isn't logical. You're effectively complaining that capitalism isn't entirely fair. Yes? And? You're also saying "The US is wealthy, people are paid more there, that's not fair". Yes? What's you're point? Nothing is entirely fair. Other political and economic systems suck too. So? Don't conflate "companies paying by a logical, sensible, fair means under a free market economy" with "Turkey is a poorer country, due to social, cultural, historical issues, and therefore, someone 1/2 a world away should help. And not help my entire country, but just give me a few random people, software engineers, more wealth." If Turkish law, case history, employment law, market and economics was the same, then likely there would be more upward pressure on wages. In other words, the way to "fix" this, is to make Turkey a 100% clone of the US, along with all of its history, and most importantly, with the cultural outlook many have in the US. But I bet that isn't what a lot of people in Turkey want, is it?
  - ornornor 6y ago
    I wouldn’t know what Turkish people want, I’m not Turkish. To put it another way, you’re employing an individual to make you a thing you’ll sell for 1000$, you’re paying that person 10$ because you can get away with it since they live in a poorer country. If that same person was living in the US (for instance), you’d pay them 30$ if they lived somewhere cheap or 200$ if they lived in SV. Same individual, same skills, same output, same product. The only thing that changes is where that person lives which isn’t always a free choice because visas mostly. Framed differently, why is it fair to pay women less than men for the same job? We actually don’t think it’s fair judging from the lip service most companies pay to that issue and the laws written in a lot of countries. In that case, the personal circumstances that influence salary is sex, in what we were discussing before it’s where you live.
    - bbarnett 6y ago
      The male/female discussion is a massive red herring, and a load of baloney. You cannot change your born sex, not when it comes to hiring discrimination. What we're talking about pay, relative to where you live. This is NOT discrimination, but market forces at work. I honestly can't even understand where you're coming from. You're essentially just asking for free money here. For people, shareholders, companies, foreign governments to hand over free money, for no other reason because you don't like how the economy works.
      - ornornor 6y ago
        I guess I think individuals’ interests trump companies’ interests and you see it differently. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that then.
        bbarnett 6y ago
        Yet, you didn't just agree to disagree. You threw a parting shot over the bow, then wanted to walk away. Not very sporting, now is that? You're saying you believe individual's rights trump company's rights. Well sure, I agree with that. But that is an insanely broad statement, and yet you're claiming I see it differently, which really can be used to infer that I'm some sort of careless bastard. Let's be clear. When you mentioned 'individuals', what you've meant this entire time is 'a person in a foreign country, working in software engineering". That's it. That's the extent of your definition of 'individual'. Any other 'individual' can go suck eggs, as far as you're concerned! You literally have thrown away all logic on living costs, not to mention you're heartlessly and carelessly disregarding all taxation! What about all those taxes, federal, state, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, city taxes, which go to help the homeless? Those are a part of that salary too. Yet, you literally cannot understand, or refuse to get, the concept that salary pays, not just the engineer... but instead the entirety of cost to support that engineer. People get so upset, that various governments don't help the poor, build infrastructure to help those in lower income brackets, try to make sure schools are funded, and so on. California has crazy taxes, and a lot of that DOES go towards additional social programs. And therefore? That tax creates upward pressure on engineer salaries, which means? Part of that wage is "high", due to that taxation. Yet you aim to use that AGAINST companies, and instead, force them to pay that SAME SALARY, without local taxation, to some guy in ... well, anywhere but the US, as you've said. Like places with reduced human rights. Or horribly restrictive laws. Or a disregard for the rights of women, minorities, and more! Yup, screw it all and nail a bucket to a post, just gimme gimme gimme that salary. And say anything to make it a reality.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > gets paid a tenth of that for the same output It hasn't been established that it's "the same output." Engineers in SV are closer to the origin of many technologies, and sometimes that provides valuable insights. There's also thousands of tech companies with HQs in SV, which means SV engineers can work more closely wih PMs and mgmt.

Ok..? I’m not talking within the US where someone could move to the higher COL city and get paid more for the same output (if it made financial sense, after living expenses etc) but about people who can’t move countries because they’ll never get a visa for instance. How is it fair, then, that a SV engineer gets paid 200k to produce software, and her colleague in Turkey gets paid a tenth of that for the same output? It’s not because they’re producing less valuable code, the company sells the product for the same price to anyone anywhere. But the Turkish engineer is basically told by the company that because she’s stuck there and she can’t move elsewhere, then it’s normal to get paid a tenth of her SV colleague. How is that fair?

bbarnett 6y ago
Discussing social imbalances, when referring to fiscal concerns of a company in a free-market economy, isn't logical. You're effectively complaining that capitalism isn't entirely fair. Yes? And? You're also saying "The US is wealthy, people are paid more there, that's not fair". Yes? What's you're point? Nothing is entirely fair. Other political and economic systems suck too. So? Don't conflate "companies paying by a logical, sensible, fair means under a free market economy" with "Turkey is a poorer country, due to social, cultural, historical issues, and therefore, someone 1/2 a world away should help. And not help my entire country, but just give me a few random people, software engineers, more wealth." If Turkish law, case history, employment law, market and economics was the same, then likely there would be more upward pressure on wages. In other words, the way to "fix" this, is to make Turkey a 100% clone of the US, along with all of its history, and most importantly, with the cultural outlook many have in the US. But I bet that isn't what a lot of people in Turkey want, is it?
- ornornor 6y ago
  I wouldn’t know what Turkish people want, I’m not Turkish. To put it another way, you’re employing an individual to make you a thing you’ll sell for 1000$, you’re paying that person 10$ because you can get away with it since they live in a poorer country. If that same person was living in the US (for instance), you’d pay them 30$ if they lived somewhere cheap or 200$ if they lived in SV. Same individual, same skills, same output, same product. The only thing that changes is where that person lives which isn’t always a free choice because visas mostly. Framed differently, why is it fair to pay women less than men for the same job? We actually don’t think it’s fair judging from the lip service most companies pay to that issue and the laws written in a lot of countries. In that case, the personal circumstances that influence salary is sex, in what we were discussing before it’s where you live.
  - bbarnett 6y ago
    The male/female discussion is a massive red herring, and a load of baloney. You cannot change your born sex, not when it comes to hiring discrimination. What we're talking about pay, relative to where you live. This is NOT discrimination, but market forces at work. I honestly can't even understand where you're coming from. You're essentially just asking for free money here. For people, shareholders, companies, foreign governments to hand over free money, for no other reason because you don't like how the economy works.
    - ornornor 6y ago
      I guess I think individuals’ interests trump companies’ interests and you see it differently. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that then.
      - bbarnett 6y ago
        Yet, you didn't just agree to disagree. You threw a parting shot over the bow, then wanted to walk away. Not very sporting, now is that? You're saying you believe individual's rights trump company's rights. Well sure, I agree with that. But that is an insanely broad statement, and yet you're claiming I see it differently, which really can be used to infer that I'm some sort of careless bastard. Let's be clear. When you mentioned 'individuals', what you've meant this entire time is 'a person in a foreign country, working in software engineering". That's it. That's the extent of your definition of 'individual'. Any other 'individual' can go suck eggs, as far as you're concerned! You literally have thrown away all logic on living costs, not to mention you're heartlessly and carelessly disregarding all taxation! What about all those taxes, federal, state, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, city taxes, which go to help the homeless? Those are a part of that salary too. Yet, you literally cannot understand, or refuse to get, the concept that salary pays, not just the engineer... but instead the entirety of cost to support that engineer. People get so upset, that various governments don't help the poor, build infrastructure to help those in lower income brackets, try to make sure schools are funded, and so on. California has crazy taxes, and a lot of that DOES go towards additional social programs. And therefore? That tax creates upward pressure on engineer salaries, which means? Part of that wage is "high", due to that taxation. Yet you aim to use that AGAINST companies, and instead, force them to pay that SAME SALARY, without local taxation, to some guy in ... well, anywhere but the US, as you've said. Like places with reduced human rights. Or horribly restrictive laws. Or a disregard for the rights of women, minorities, and more! Yup, screw it all and nail a bucket to a post, just gimme gimme gimme that salary. And say anything to make it a reality.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> gets paid a tenth of that for the same output It hasn't been established that it's "the same output." Engineers in SV are closer to the origin of many technologies, and sometimes that provides valuable insights. There's also thousands of tech companies with HQs in SV, which means SV engineers can work more closely wih PMs and mgmt.