6 ms·

Victoria to fine drivers blocking EV chargers

17 points by oxplot 6y ago

admin000001 6y ago
I think it would make more sense to increase tax on gas cars and oil companies to encourage the use of EVs.
- rlpb 6y ago
  Why not do both? In any case, most countries do already "increase tax" by levying taxes on gas that they don't levy on electric.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    Victoria has announced it's going to tax EVs per km driven to make up for losses in fuel taxes. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2020/nov/22/tax-on-electric-vehicles-in-south-australia-and-victoria-would-slam-brakes-on-sales https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2020/n...
    - ehnto 6y ago
      I wonder if we could replace both taxes with a general carbon tax and just take infrastructure out of income and carbon tax combined. Decouple transport tax income from KMs driven entirely.
      - nine_k 6y ago
        But don't roads wear from use? Won't 100% carbon-neutral electric 18-wheelers need to pay a share for the maintenance?
        ehnto 6y ago
        Which you pay for from a general carbon tax, which is a tax on all carbon generating activities. I probably didn't make that clear sorry. Essentially I am saying infrastructure should come out of the general budget and we shouldn't fuss with counting KMs at all. A carbon tax on all CO2 polluting activities would just inflate the general tax revenue and hopefully enough to pay for the infrastructure upkeep.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > But don't roads wear from use? Yes. > Won't 100% carbon-neutral electric 18-wheelers need to pay a share for the maintenance? No, they don't have to. While a usage fee model is one possible model, there's no reason it couldn't be paid out of general taxes, like the income taxes mentioned upthread.
      - throw_away 6y ago
        Both the EV tax and the ICE fine for parking in EV slots were mentioned in the original article. They are separate policies that seem to be conflated in these comments. The reason why they are implementing an EV tax partially based on miles driven is because EVs cause wear and tear on roads, but contribute little to none to those maintenance costs through petrol taxes. This is why plug in hybrids pay a lower tax rate in their policy (as presumably they'd pay at least some via the petrol tax). I'm not going to argue about whether it would be better to push that all onto legacy ICE users, but something or other will need to be sorted out soonish as they plan to phase out sales of new ICE vehicles by 2030. It will take a while to flush out the existing fleet, but it will increasingly be a problem of who pays for the roads? Will it just be everyone who is too poor to upgrade? It feels decoupled from the carbon usage to propel the vehicles so you can't just jack the carbon tax without goofing everything else & subsidizing drivers as the electricity is fungible. Eventually it seems like it will need to just be a road tax & be like registration + some miles & weight & whatever else driven calculation. + then also carbon tax the ICE fuel and the EV juice at whatever it is.
        ehnto 6y ago
        > Both the EV tax and the ICE fine for parking in EV slots were mentioned in the original article I think the discussion just moved on that's all. I wasn't commenting about the fine,the fine makes sense. My suggestion was to inflate general tax revenue with a carbon emissions tax on all carbon heavy activities (driving or other). Then forget the per-mile/per-litre stuff all together. I wouldn't even be against an infrastructure tax levy in my income tax. Part of my enthusiasm for that is so that the absurd spend on car infrastructure is actually pitted against other options such as public transport projects and my hope is thst more public infrastructure would be built because of that. But I am spitballing policy here, I haven't thought particularly deeply about a restructuring like that and it depends on where you live too.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  This policy is fine, easy to implement, and discourages the sociopathic behavior of ICEing charging stops. That said, it's not going to fix the problem. The root cause is cars -- both electric and petrol. Yes, EVs are an improvement over petrol cars. They decouple energy generation and transportation, so they will get cleaner with time. But fundamentally we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of cars. Parking is a blight in urban areas, trains and public transport are massively better people movers, and even EVs produce significant pollution from their production and tire wear.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I think this illustrates a problem with just about all areas of environmentalism. You start off with a premise that's widely agreeable like "ICE cars are bad for the environment" and slowly edge towards stuff like "private vehicle ownership is a blight on society", which is far less agreeable and completely ignores what most people in society actually want. 20 years ago I used to vote for local green candidates in various elections, but their main platform now is radical socialist economic reform. I'm not sure they're even bothered about the environment any more.
    - jesstaa 6y ago
      "consumerist capitalism is an environmental disaster" isn't a hard argument to make and people eventually realize most environmentalism is just stacking the deck chairs on the titanic.
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        I can’t see how consumerist socialism is going to somehow solve all those problems. In any election these days it’s almost impossible to cast a vote for environmentalist policies without also voting for radical socialist economic policies. I’d suggest this is actually quite a problem for anybody who cares about environmentalism, because the number of people who want full socialism is way lower than the number of people who care about the environment.
omarforgotpwd 6y ago
Expect this to become standard worldwide as electric vehicles become more common
- SftwreEngnr 6y ago
  Don't tell me what to do.
fmajid 6y ago
Don't fine, tow. They'll get the message eventually.

17 points by oxplot 6y ago

admin000001 6y ago

I think it would make more sense to increase tax on gas cars and oil companies to encourage the use of EVs.

rlpb 6y ago
Why not do both? In any case, most countries do already "increase tax" by levying taxes on gas that they don't levy on electric.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  Victoria has announced it's going to tax EVs per km driven to make up for losses in fuel taxes. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2020/nov/22/tax-on-electric-vehicles-in-south-australia-and-victoria-would-slam-brakes-on-sales https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2020/n...
  - ehnto 6y ago
    I wonder if we could replace both taxes with a general carbon tax and just take infrastructure out of income and carbon tax combined. Decouple transport tax income from KMs driven entirely.
    - nine_k 6y ago
      But don't roads wear from use? Won't 100% carbon-neutral electric 18-wheelers need to pay a share for the maintenance?
      - ehnto 6y ago
        Which you pay for from a general carbon tax, which is a tax on all carbon generating activities. I probably didn't make that clear sorry. Essentially I am saying infrastructure should come out of the general budget and we shouldn't fuss with counting KMs at all. A carbon tax on all CO2 polluting activities would just inflate the general tax revenue and hopefully enough to pay for the infrastructure upkeep.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > But don't roads wear from use? Yes. > Won't 100% carbon-neutral electric 18-wheelers need to pay a share for the maintenance? No, they don't have to. While a usage fee model is one possible model, there's no reason it couldn't be paid out of general taxes, like the income taxes mentioned upthread.
    - throw_away 6y ago
      Both the EV tax and the ICE fine for parking in EV slots were mentioned in the original article. They are separate policies that seem to be conflated in these comments. The reason why they are implementing an EV tax partially based on miles driven is because EVs cause wear and tear on roads, but contribute little to none to those maintenance costs through petrol taxes. This is why plug in hybrids pay a lower tax rate in their policy (as presumably they'd pay at least some via the petrol tax). I'm not going to argue about whether it would be better to push that all onto legacy ICE users, but something or other will need to be sorted out soonish as they plan to phase out sales of new ICE vehicles by 2030. It will take a while to flush out the existing fleet, but it will increasingly be a problem of who pays for the roads? Will it just be everyone who is too poor to upgrade? It feels decoupled from the carbon usage to propel the vehicles so you can't just jack the carbon tax without goofing everything else & subsidizing drivers as the electricity is fungible. Eventually it seems like it will need to just be a road tax & be like registration + some miles & weight & whatever else driven calculation. + then also carbon tax the ICE fuel and the EV juice at whatever it is.
      - ehnto 6y ago
        > Both the EV tax and the ICE fine for parking in EV slots were mentioned in the original article I think the discussion just moved on that's all. I wasn't commenting about the fine,the fine makes sense. My suggestion was to inflate general tax revenue with a carbon emissions tax on all carbon heavy activities (driving or other). Then forget the per-mile/per-litre stuff all together. I wouldn't even be against an infrastructure tax levy in my income tax. Part of my enthusiasm for that is so that the absurd spend on car infrastructure is actually pitted against other options such as public transport projects and my hope is thst more public infrastructure would be built because of that. But I am spitballing policy here, I haven't thought particularly deeply about a restructuring like that and it depends on where you live too.
Pfhreak 6y ago
This policy is fine, easy to implement, and discourages the sociopathic behavior of ICEing charging stops. That said, it's not going to fix the problem. The root cause is cars -- both electric and petrol. Yes, EVs are an improvement over petrol cars. They decouple energy generation and transportation, so they will get cleaner with time. But fundamentally we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of cars. Parking is a blight in urban areas, trains and public transport are massively better people movers, and even EVs produce significant pollution from their production and tire wear.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I think this illustrates a problem with just about all areas of environmentalism. You start off with a premise that's widely agreeable like "ICE cars are bad for the environment" and slowly edge towards stuff like "private vehicle ownership is a blight on society", which is far less agreeable and completely ignores what most people in society actually want. 20 years ago I used to vote for local green candidates in various elections, but their main platform now is radical socialist economic reform. I'm not sure they're even bothered about the environment any more.
  - jesstaa 6y ago
    "consumerist capitalism is an environmental disaster" isn't a hard argument to make and people eventually realize most environmentalism is just stacking the deck chairs on the titanic.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      I can’t see how consumerist socialism is going to somehow solve all those problems. In any election these days it’s almost impossible to cast a vote for environmentalist policies without also voting for radical socialist economic policies. I’d suggest this is actually quite a problem for anybody who cares about environmentalism, because the number of people who want full socialism is way lower than the number of people who care about the environment.

omarforgotpwd 6y ago

Expect this to become standard worldwide as electric vehicles become more common

SftwreEngnr 6y ago
Don't tell me what to do.

fmajid 6y ago

Don't fine, tow. They'll get the message eventually.