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Anyone who has ever seen a deindustrialized American city like Detroit knows that there are rotting mansions, while working people live in cramped tenements. I

Anyone who has ever seen a deindustrialized American city like Detroit knows that there are rotting mansions, while working people live in cramped tenements. Imagine if Detroit had imposed a $5000/year non-occupancy tax on those foreclosed or abandoned mansions. People would have lived in them and maintained them, instead of letting them rot.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
redisman 6y ago
Aren’t they rotting because the owner defaulted and wouldn’t be able to pay further punishments anyway? If you’re 500k in the hole, how is a 5k tax going to do anything?
- hindsightbias 6y ago
  No, they rotted because no one wanted to live there. Whereas, everyone, their dog and dead grandmother wants to live in YVR.
  - rmrfstar 6y ago
    It's so weird that people find it hard to see a rotted mansion as a policy failure. That's straight up economic waste. It's like dumping milk to support the market price, even if people are hungry. Detroit isn't abandoned. It just doesn't have rich people, and banks were too aggressive in their pricing of foreclosed properties. Now those properties have all rotted. Economic waste should be severely penalized in the tax code.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Detroit needed to shed its obligations before even a free house or land made sense for many people. The government’s obligations were made with the assumption that population (and economic) growth would continue. It did the opposite, and you simply can’t operate a business (or government) where more than half of your revenue is gone and your expenses keep rising. Just like you wouldn’t invest in a business laden with outsized debt obligations from projections that didn’t come true, you wouldn’t want to put your name on a title to take on the obligations of a city who had lost 50%+ of its people and revenue. Supposedly, this was attempted to be fixed in 2014’s bankruptcy rulings, so we’ll have to see if that brought the expenses in line to make it a worthwhile investment.
      - im3w1l 6y ago
        The house is a real physical thing. Obligations, debt, bankruptcies, these are all abstractions. Ideally the abstractions should lead to the real physical things being taken care of. If they don't, something may be wrong with the abstractions. But we should be clear that there will always be some waste, so the question is if waste is higher than it needs to be.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Yes, but that didn’t happen until 2014, while the economic realities were clear to investors (including people deciding where to live and raise families) for decades already. Unfortunately, the political machine can move slower than society needs it to and in the meantime, the infrastructure and real physical things degrade.
  - chrisbennet 6y ago
    YVR=Vancouver I had to look it up.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- r00fus 6y ago
  Luckily that’s not Vancouver’s problem.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  The bank would be forced to sell it or keep paying the 5000 tax at that point. Which would circulate housing faster through banks. It might even make banks be willing to work for better payment plans for the people owing debt.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
seibelj 6y ago
An old Detroit mansion is not an easy thing to maintain. Even if they aren’t full of ancient fixtures, wiring, plumbing, heating, and have a solid roof just maintaining a property like that in working order is no small and inexpensive task. These properties are rotting because people with the wherewithal to actually afford them don’t want the hassle.
- rmrfstar 6y ago
  That's a great point, but the maintenance techniques aren't terribly difficult to learn. One could easily imagine those skills spreading quickly in an environment where abandoned buildings are cheap to occupy. That presumes that buildings can be acquired before they have rotted into uselessness.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    A lot of those maintenance needs, especially for older buildings are going to require licensed electrician or plumbers. No insurance company or lender is going to want to touch old properties with outdated electrical and plumbing with extensive do it yourself work, and for good reason.
    - im3w1l 6y ago
      Well if you diy plumb it, worst possible outcome is that they rot isn't it? And that's already happening.
      - michael1999 6y ago
        The worst case is that you spread disease back into the municipal water supply and kill neighbours.
redis_mlc 6y ago
My family is originally from Detroit. The posts in this thread don't reflect reality. A good duplex for sale in Detroit is around $20,000 now. If it's recently empty, it's $5,000 plus back taxes. If it's been empty for more than a couple weeks, it has already been stripped and burned once or twice and the lot has little value, plus back taxes. The policy of the Detroit Fire Department to avoid injuries is to allow houses to burn to the ground, then bulldoze them. The problem with living in most of Detroit is that as soon aa you leave the house to go to work or shopping, your neighbors will see you leave and attempt to break into your house. Fences, razor wire and padlocks help, but in the end it's a losing battle. Toledo, Ohio is in worse shape than Detroit. When I was there 40 years ago, it was literally a moonscape - just house foundations visible for miles. Not sure if they rebuilt it or not.
- mamon 6y ago
  >> as soon aa you leave the house to go to work or shopping, your neighbors will see you leave and attempt to break into your house Really? In 21st century? seems like the Wild West to me.
swebs 6y ago
Those buildings were abandoned. I don't know how increasing their liability would solve the problem.
- dionidium 6y ago
  Despite what people who have only lived in booming metros may think, housing can not only decline in value, it can go negative, which is to say that it can decline to the point that maintenance costs exceed the improved value. These houses were abandoned because they are literally worthless. Worse, they're liabilities.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
Then Detroit wouldn’t be in America. Private property rights are core to a capitalist society and American constitution. To attempt to alter that is to alter the foundations upon which this nation was founded. Public policy should be based long term vision and not as a short term band aid to specific handicaps.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

redisman 6y ago

Aren’t they rotting because the owner defaulted and wouldn’t be able to pay further punishments anyway? If you’re 500k in the hole, how is a 5k tax going to do anything?

hindsightbias 6y ago
No, they rotted because no one wanted to live there. Whereas, everyone, their dog and dead grandmother wants to live in YVR.
- rmrfstar 6y ago
  It's so weird that people find it hard to see a rotted mansion as a policy failure. That's straight up economic waste. It's like dumping milk to support the market price, even if people are hungry. Detroit isn't abandoned. It just doesn't have rich people, and banks were too aggressive in their pricing of foreclosed properties. Now those properties have all rotted. Economic waste should be severely penalized in the tax code.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Detroit needed to shed its obligations before even a free house or land made sense for many people. The government’s obligations were made with the assumption that population (and economic) growth would continue. It did the opposite, and you simply can’t operate a business (or government) where more than half of your revenue is gone and your expenses keep rising. Just like you wouldn’t invest in a business laden with outsized debt obligations from projections that didn’t come true, you wouldn’t want to put your name on a title to take on the obligations of a city who had lost 50%+ of its people and revenue. Supposedly, this was attempted to be fixed in 2014’s bankruptcy rulings, so we’ll have to see if that brought the expenses in line to make it a worthwhile investment.
    - im3w1l 6y ago
      The house is a real physical thing. Obligations, debt, bankruptcies, these are all abstractions. Ideally the abstractions should lead to the real physical things being taken care of. If they don't, something may be wrong with the abstractions. But we should be clear that there will always be some waste, so the question is if waste is higher than it needs to be.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Yes, but that didn’t happen until 2014, while the economic realities were clear to investors (including people deciding where to live and raise families) for decades already. Unfortunately, the political machine can move slower than society needs it to and in the meantime, the infrastructure and real physical things degrade.
- chrisbennet 6y ago
  YVR=Vancouver I had to look it up.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
r00fus 6y ago
Luckily that’s not Vancouver’s problem.
aaomidi 6y ago
The bank would be forced to sell it or keep paying the 5000 tax at that point. Which would circulate housing faster through banks. It might even make banks be willing to work for better payment plans for the people owing debt.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

seibelj 6y ago

An old Detroit mansion is not an easy thing to maintain. Even if they aren’t full of ancient fixtures, wiring, plumbing, heating, and have a solid roof just maintaining a property like that in working order is no small and inexpensive task. These properties are rotting because people with the wherewithal to actually afford them don’t want the hassle.

rmrfstar 6y ago
That's a great point, but the maintenance techniques aren't terribly difficult to learn. One could easily imagine those skills spreading quickly in an environment where abandoned buildings are cheap to occupy. That presumes that buildings can be acquired before they have rotted into uselessness.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  A lot of those maintenance needs, especially for older buildings are going to require licensed electrician or plumbers. No insurance company or lender is going to want to touch old properties with outdated electrical and plumbing with extensive do it yourself work, and for good reason.
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    Well if you diy plumb it, worst possible outcome is that they rot isn't it? And that's already happening.
    - michael1999 6y ago
      The worst case is that you spread disease back into the municipal water supply and kill neighbours.

redis_mlc 6y ago

My family is originally from Detroit. The posts in this thread don't reflect reality. A good duplex for sale in Detroit is around $20,000 now. If it's recently empty, it's $5,000 plus back taxes. If it's been empty for more than a couple weeks, it has already been stripped and burned once or twice and the lot has little value, plus back taxes. The policy of the Detroit Fire Department to avoid injuries is to allow houses to burn to the ground, then bulldoze them. The problem with living in most of Detroit is that as soon aa you leave the house to go to work or shopping, your neighbors will see you leave and attempt to break into your house. Fences, razor wire and padlocks help, but in the end it's a losing battle. Toledo, Ohio is in worse shape than Detroit. When I was there 40 years ago, it was literally a moonscape - just house foundations visible for miles. Not sure if they rebuilt it or not.

mamon 6y ago
>> as soon aa you leave the house to go to work or shopping, your neighbors will see you leave and attempt to break into your house Really? In 21st century? seems like the Wild West to me.

swebs 6y ago

Those buildings were abandoned. I don't know how increasing their liability would solve the problem.

dionidium 6y ago
Despite what people who have only lived in booming metros may think, housing can not only decline in value, it can go negative, which is to say that it can decline to the point that maintenance costs exceed the improved value. These houses were abandoned because they are literally worthless. Worse, they're liabilities.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

Then Detroit wouldn’t be in America. Private property rights are core to a capitalist society and American constitution. To attempt to alter that is to alter the foundations upon which this nation was founded. Public policy should be based long term vision and not as a short term band aid to specific handicaps.