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This type of interaction is like a defining meme for linux on the desktop. One person's experience is horrible (mouse not working, monitor resolution not workin

This type of interaction is like a defining meme for linux on the desktop. One person's experience is horrible (mouse not working, monitor resolution not working, some other minor thing not working) and another person says "It's always worked for me." Notice how people almost never have these conversations about MacOS or Windows? Consistency in experience takes A LOT of investment, and it's a very weak point for linux on the desktop (speaking as someone who tries it every few years and goes back to Mac).

Arnavion 6y ago
People have these conversations about Windows all the time. And it's usually worse when it comes to Windows because the software is closed both in the "source" sense and the "visibility" (logs, etc) sense, so nobody has any idea what to do except "try restarting", "try reinstalling the software", "try reinstalling Windows". (No idea about Macs; I don't pay attention to conversations about them.)
- 59nadir 6y ago
  They really, really don't. This is one area where Stockholm syndrome usually kicks in hard for people who desperately want it to be true that Linux is polished and ready for the masses. Truthfully, I think I have the same issues on Linux nowadays as I had in the late 00's, just less consistently. The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. Open source has done very little to remove inconsistencies and all three of your "try ..." remain very relevant with tons of software on Linux. Having used a Windows 10 box primarily for the last two years I can say there are way less issues and way less blockers involved when using Windows for development than Linux. I'm almost mad I didn't give up on Linux as a daily driver earlier, because in hindsight it really wasn't a productive experience.
  - Arnavion 6y ago
    >The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. "pulseaudio doesn't work" meme in 2020, lol. Windows audio is a completely solved problem, right? Let's see some web search results for variations of "windows audio problem": https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-other_settings-winpc/volume-control-at-100-cant-mute-or-reduce-sound/f54ce430-1a73-410a-8abc-720c5e73cfaa >Then... I called Dell. Spent FOUR HOURS on the phone last night, resetting/restoring operating system. Not fixed. --- https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10-73025246-b61c-40fb-671a-2535c7cd56c8 >3. Verify that all Windows Updates are installed >6. Fix your audio drivers >9. Restart Audio Services >11. Restart to apply installed updates --- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/audio-problems-after-windows-10-update/c4586688-176f-41ef-9be8-33748a811fc3 >In this case I would look to reinstall the manufacturer audio drivers as they have probably been replaced by Windows 10 built in drivers. >ok after testing this on several games the sound is noticeably better but not completely normal should i download another driver ? --- Some lets-players I watch regularly complain about how W10 updates break their audio capture / microphone settings. They work around it by uninstalling the update and trying as hard as possible to not let it be reinstalled automatically. --- Like I said, not only are there problems, but nobody knows how to figure out what the problem is. Just "run the built-in troubleshooter" (which both clueful and clueless Windows users will tell you rarely fixes anything), "update your drivers", "install Windows updates", "restart your computer". When I have issues with OSS on Linux, I have logs with filenames and distinctive error messages, publicly viewable sources that I can correlate the logs to if I want to, and forums of other people who can do that if I don't. If it's an absolutely novel problem, I can contact the authors of the code and have a high expectation of getting a response. If it's an issue that needs a fix, I can track the progress and release of the fix. And before you say "I don't have any of these problems with audio on Windows", I too haven't had any problems with pulseaudio for the almost 10 years that I've used it.
    - naikrovek 6y ago
      If you are arguing that Windows audio is as troublesome as Linux audio, I think you'll find a lot of people willing to debate you. The windows troubleshooters will fix the things they are designed to fix. They're just powershell scripts with a wizard-style interface. I've had them fix many networking issues on certain computers reliably. I haven't ever had an audio problem on Windows that wasn't caused by me, so I've never needed to run an audio troubleshooter for audio. Windows has log files too, you just need to know where to look. Usually event viewer will have what you need, but sometimes you'll need to run a diagnostic that generates logs, or you'll just need to know where the logs are.
  - iforgotpassword 6y ago
    They merely said other platforms have issues too, not that linux doesn't have any. It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome, then continuing on with an anecdote how Windows always works for you. I had win8 installs that would search for updates for hours on end with no result, weird error codes from windows update, windows 10 updates that left the system unbootable, broken .NET installs that couldnt be fixed without a windows reinstall. So where does that leave us? Exactly the "Linux meme" mentioned a few comments up.
    - 59nadir 6y ago
      > It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome, then continuing on with an anecdote how Windows always works for you. I didn't say "Windows always works for me", but rather that these imagined conversations about issues like these aren't a regular fixture among Windows users. The perceived polish of Linux that supposedly made things like these much rarer is just that, perceived. Windows doesn't always work perfectly, it just works for hundreds of times more people way more of the time than Linux. You seem to take someone calling this a "meme" as saying it's not real. It's not a joke as much as it's just something that is and something that naturally happens in an ecosystem where nothing is made to work with anything else. > I had win8 installs that would search for updates for hours on end with no result, weird error codes from windows update, windows 10 updates that left the system unbootable, broken .NET installs that couldnt be fixed without a windows reinstall. I've had equivalents of these (unbootable computer after an update being the most exact match) with OS X. It doesn't mean that OS X isn't all-in-all a much more well put together operating system than Linux + userland or Windows. Does that mean it's perfect? No. But let's at least establish that Linux is nowhere near close to offering the same quality experience overall as neither OS X or Windows, even in a ballpark sense. As an additional point to this: Do you believe, once non-enthusiasts start using Linux, that issues will be more or less visible? I know what my bet is.
      - I_complete_me 6y ago
        > It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome: but I recently came across this one by Ken Dodd: "Just read a book about Stockholm Syndrome. It started off badly but by the end I really liked it."
- bzb6 6y ago
  I don’t see these conversations about Windows anywhere, and Windows has lots of logs if you know where to look (the Event Viewer is a great start)
  - nix23 6y ago
    Oh yeah the logs of Windows are great: Exception Code 0xc0156734 ...Thanks Microsoft, now i need bing to find google, just to find 1000's of "registry cleaners" and "Antivirus" sites to find out whats wrong or what that error even means.
    - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? This is coming from a Linux fan, and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. I stick with macOS not because I want to but because I have to.
      - nix23 6y ago
        >How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? That probably counts for Android too? No? >and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. Na i don't believe you that you are a "technical user"

Arnavion 6y ago

People have these conversations about Windows all the time. And it's usually worse when it comes to Windows because the software is closed both in the "source" sense and the "visibility" (logs, etc) sense, so nobody has any idea what to do except "try restarting", "try reinstalling the software", "try reinstalling Windows". (No idea about Macs; I don't pay attention to conversations about them.)

59nadir 6y ago
They really, really don't. This is one area where Stockholm syndrome usually kicks in hard for people who desperately want it to be true that Linux is polished and ready for the masses. Truthfully, I think I have the same issues on Linux nowadays as I had in the late 00's, just less consistently. The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. Open source has done very little to remove inconsistencies and all three of your "try ..." remain very relevant with tons of software on Linux. Having used a Windows 10 box primarily for the last two years I can say there are way less issues and way less blockers involved when using Windows for development than Linux. I'm almost mad I didn't give up on Linux as a daily driver earlier, because in hindsight it really wasn't a productive experience.
- Arnavion 6y ago
  >The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. "pulseaudio doesn't work" meme in 2020, lol. Windows audio is a completely solved problem, right? Let's see some web search results for variations of "windows audio problem": https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-other_settings-winpc/volume-control-at-100-cant-mute-or-reduce-sound/f54ce430-1a73-410a-8abc-720c5e73cfaa >Then... I called Dell. Spent FOUR HOURS on the phone last night, resetting/restoring operating system. Not fixed. --- https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10-73025246-b61c-40fb-671a-2535c7cd56c8 >3. Verify that all Windows Updates are installed >6. Fix your audio drivers >9. Restart Audio Services >11. Restart to apply installed updates --- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/audio-problems-after-windows-10-update/c4586688-176f-41ef-9be8-33748a811fc3 >In this case I would look to reinstall the manufacturer audio drivers as they have probably been replaced by Windows 10 built in drivers. >ok after testing this on several games the sound is noticeably better but not completely normal should i download another driver ? --- Some lets-players I watch regularly complain about how W10 updates break their audio capture / microphone settings. They work around it by uninstalling the update and trying as hard as possible to not let it be reinstalled automatically. --- Like I said, not only are there problems, but nobody knows how to figure out what the problem is. Just "run the built-in troubleshooter" (which both clueful and clueless Windows users will tell you rarely fixes anything), "update your drivers", "install Windows updates", "restart your computer". When I have issues with OSS on Linux, I have logs with filenames and distinctive error messages, publicly viewable sources that I can correlate the logs to if I want to, and forums of other people who can do that if I don't. If it's an absolutely novel problem, I can contact the authors of the code and have a high expectation of getting a response. If it's an issue that needs a fix, I can track the progress and release of the fix. And before you say "I don't have any of these problems with audio on Windows", I too haven't had any problems with pulseaudio for the almost 10 years that I've used it.
  - naikrovek 6y ago
    If you are arguing that Windows audio is as troublesome as Linux audio, I think you'll find a lot of people willing to debate you. The windows troubleshooters will fix the things they are designed to fix. They're just powershell scripts with a wizard-style interface. I've had them fix many networking issues on certain computers reliably. I haven't ever had an audio problem on Windows that wasn't caused by me, so I've never needed to run an audio troubleshooter for audio. Windows has log files too, you just need to know where to look. Usually event viewer will have what you need, but sometimes you'll need to run a diagnostic that generates logs, or you'll just need to know where the logs are.
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  They merely said other platforms have issues too, not that linux doesn't have any. It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome, then continuing on with an anecdote how Windows always works for you. I had win8 installs that would search for updates for hours on end with no result, weird error codes from windows update, windows 10 updates that left the system unbootable, broken .NET installs that couldnt be fixed without a windows reinstall. So where does that leave us? Exactly the "Linux meme" mentioned a few comments up.
  - 59nadir 6y ago
    > It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome, then continuing on with an anecdote how Windows always works for you. I didn't say "Windows always works for me", but rather that these imagined conversations about issues like these aren't a regular fixture among Windows users. The perceived polish of Linux that supposedly made things like these much rarer is just that, perceived. Windows doesn't always work perfectly, it just works for hundreds of times more people way more of the time than Linux. You seem to take someone calling this a "meme" as saying it's not real. It's not a joke as much as it's just something that is and something that naturally happens in an ecosystem where nothing is made to work with anything else. > I had win8 installs that would search for updates for hours on end with no result, weird error codes from windows update, windows 10 updates that left the system unbootable, broken .NET installs that couldnt be fixed without a windows reinstall. I've had equivalents of these (unbootable computer after an update being the most exact match) with OS X. It doesn't mean that OS X isn't all-in-all a much more well put together operating system than Linux + userland or Windows. Does that mean it's perfect? No. But let's at least establish that Linux is nowhere near close to offering the same quality experience overall as neither OS X or Windows, even in a ballpark sense. As an additional point to this: Do you believe, once non-enthusiasts start using Linux, that issues will be more or less visible? I know what my bet is.
    - I_complete_me 6y ago
      > It's funny you mention Stockolm syndrome: but I recently came across this one by Ken Dodd: "Just read a book about Stockholm Syndrome. It started off badly but by the end I really liked it."
bzb6 6y ago
I don’t see these conversations about Windows anywhere, and Windows has lots of logs if you know where to look (the Event Viewer is a great start)
- nix23 6y ago
  Oh yeah the logs of Windows are great: Exception Code 0xc0156734 ...Thanks Microsoft, now i need bing to find google, just to find 1000's of "registry cleaners" and "Antivirus" sites to find out whats wrong or what that error even means.
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? This is coming from a Linux fan, and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. I stick with macOS not because I want to but because I have to.
    - nix23 6y ago
      >How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? That probably counts for Android too? No? >and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. Na i don't believe you that you are a "technical user"