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As spiffy as Apple mobile devices are, I never found the locked down environment worth it. Nice hardware, too bad about the OS/App model... This new hardware

As spiffy as Apple mobile devices are, I never found the locked down environment worth it. Nice hardware, too bad about the OS/App model... This new hardware is awesome! I could care less overall though. Frankly, open computing can be done fast enough to not be a worry. I will stick with all that and see where this new path leads. And my mind is open. Who knows? Maybe it all ends up in a good place. I am quite happy to run FOSS on the many devices that will do that reasonably for the foreseeable future.

mch82 6y ago
I don’t understand why people complain instead of taking FOSS they like, packaging it as an app, distributing it on the App Store & publishing the source. Does Apple prohibit that? I remember the days of very little Apple compatible software on the shelf at retailers, and no games. I was probably one of the first students to use a MacBook with OSX for CSCI 101 because many classes required Windows. That was lack of freedom. The App Store has more software than any other distribution channel at any point in my life. Edit: I also love freedom from malware, which I understand is probably a temporary situation. But it’s been a good run so far.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > I don’t understand why people complain instead of taking FOSS they like, packaging it as an app, distributing it on the App Store & publishing the source. Does Apple prohibit that? Apple does not, but the GPL does.
  - mch82 6y ago
    If the source of the app is released by the author, what about GPL prohibits this? Edit: I ask because I’m curious to learn and because many systems run apps that are GPL without the whole system being GPL. For example, I love using GIMP on Windows.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Section 6 of the GPLv2 states: > You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. This conflicts with the App Store's Terms of Service, particularly it's "Usage Rules". https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store... This is of course different from merely running GPL software on a proprietary OS. In fact, iOS ships with GPL software on board.
      - mch82 6y ago
        That’s a helpful reference on GPL. I’ll save a link to it. Not sure this Stack Overflow is current/correct, but it appears other FOSS licenses might be compatible with iOS App Store terms. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/459833/which-open-source-licenses-are-compatible-with-the-apples-iphone-and-its-offici https://stackoverflow.com/questions/459833/which-open-source...
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    Note that this applies only if you are using GPL software owned by other people. If you write entirely your own code, and include only more freely licensed dependencies, you can release your own code under the GPL and still distribute it on the App Store.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Sure, but that's only because if it's your own code, you don't have to follow any rules at all. You can do whatever the heck you want, up to and including making the whole thing closed source.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    Apple will remove software from the App Store if they get a whiff of it including GPL code.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  It costs time and money to do that. Who is gonna port, pay, and gonna do it?
  - mch82 6y ago
    I understand it will take effort and don’t have answers for those questions.
    - ddingus 6y ago
      This is all a lot cheaper on open systems. Just saying. Eric Raymond explained why: use value. Open systems can be exploited easily and the people who use them get high use value because of all that. Incentives to port and build on known open systems are stronger, barriers to access lower. Result: more FOSS on said system
scoopertrooper 6y ago
The Mac M1 platform is about as open as any other laptop platform. Your points are quite valid for the i-class devices, but there is nothing preventing anyone from installing linux on an M1 Mac once driver support arrives.
- fomine3 6y ago
  There's no OSS driver for Apple Silicon (x86 platforms has OSS driver for Linux maintained by platform company) and boot process is proprietary (x86 UEFI is open spec).
- waheoo 6y ago
  Do you seriously trust that not to change? When is driver support coming? When will audio on Mac's work on Linux? When will the touchbar drivers be made available? Apple doesn't give a shit about Linux, but they also don't make it easy to use their hardware. And to answer the question posed, no, I would never give this company money.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > Do you seriously trust that not to change? No, I don't. On the Mac platform, Apple has consistently elected to give users ultimate control. They could have a change of heart some day, but so could Intel, Microsoft, or any other vendor.
    - endgame 6y ago
      The same Apple that continually locks down / harder and harder with each OS release, and makes developers jump through more and more hoops?
      - mschuster91 6y ago
        As a power user, you can however still jump through all those hoops, even with custom kext's. I agree that the situation sucks for us, but on the other side - you can give a piece of Apple hardware to a literal child and won't have to deal with either getting it running in the first place (as with anything Linux based) or a persistent rootkit or other malware (which is more common and easy than not on Windows). Being easily open for power users, hard to exploit for malware and hard for incompetent people to mess up, unfortunately, is a Hard Thing.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mch82 6y ago

I don’t understand why people complain instead of taking FOSS they like, packaging it as an app, distributing it on the App Store & publishing the source. Does Apple prohibit that? I remember the days of very little Apple compatible software on the shelf at retailers, and no games. I was probably one of the first students to use a MacBook with OSX for CSCI 101 because many classes required Windows. That was lack of freedom. The App Store has more software than any other distribution channel at any point in my life. Edit: I also love freedom from malware, which I understand is probably a temporary situation. But it’s been a good run so far.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> I don’t understand why people complain instead of taking FOSS they like, packaging it as an app, distributing it on the App Store & publishing the source. Does Apple prohibit that? Apple does not, but the GPL does.
- mch82 6y ago
  If the source of the app is released by the author, what about GPL prohibits this? Edit: I ask because I’m curious to learn and because many systems run apps that are GPL without the whole system being GPL. For example, I love using GIMP on Windows.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Section 6 of the GPLv2 states: > You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. This conflicts with the App Store's Terms of Service, particularly it's "Usage Rules". https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store... This is of course different from merely running GPL software on a proprietary OS. In fact, iOS ships with GPL software on board.
    - mch82 6y ago
      That’s a helpful reference on GPL. I’ll save a link to it. Not sure this Stack Overflow is current/correct, but it appears other FOSS licenses might be compatible with iOS App Store terms. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/459833/which-open-source-licenses-are-compatible-with-the-apples-iphone-and-its-offici https://stackoverflow.com/questions/459833/which-open-source...
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Note that this applies only if you are using GPL software owned by other people. If you write entirely your own code, and include only more freely licensed dependencies, you can release your own code under the GPL and still distribute it on the App Store.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Sure, but that's only because if it's your own code, you don't have to follow any rules at all. You can do whatever the heck you want, up to and including making the whole thing closed source.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Apple will remove software from the App Store if they get a whiff of it including GPL code.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
It costs time and money to do that. Who is gonna port, pay, and gonna do it?
- mch82 6y ago
  I understand it will take effort and don’t have answers for those questions.
  - ddingus 6y ago
    This is all a lot cheaper on open systems. Just saying. Eric Raymond explained why: use value. Open systems can be exploited easily and the people who use them get high use value because of all that. Incentives to port and build on known open systems are stronger, barriers to access lower. Result: more FOSS on said system

scoopertrooper 6y ago

The Mac M1 platform is about as open as any other laptop platform. Your points are quite valid for the i-class devices, but there is nothing preventing anyone from installing linux on an M1 Mac once driver support arrives.

fomine3 6y ago
There's no OSS driver for Apple Silicon (x86 platforms has OSS driver for Linux maintained by platform company) and boot process is proprietary (x86 UEFI is open spec).
waheoo 6y ago
Do you seriously trust that not to change? When is driver support coming? When will audio on Mac's work on Linux? When will the touchbar drivers be made available? Apple doesn't give a shit about Linux, but they also don't make it easy to use their hardware. And to answer the question posed, no, I would never give this company money.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > Do you seriously trust that not to change? No, I don't. On the Mac platform, Apple has consistently elected to give users ultimate control. They could have a change of heart some day, but so could Intel, Microsoft, or any other vendor.
  - endgame 6y ago
    The same Apple that continually locks down / harder and harder with each OS release, and makes developers jump through more and more hoops?
    - mschuster91 6y ago
      As a power user, you can however still jump through all those hoops, even with custom kext's. I agree that the situation sucks for us, but on the other side - you can give a piece of Apple hardware to a literal child and won't have to deal with either getting it running in the first place (as with anything Linux based) or a persistent rootkit or other malware (which is more common and easy than not on Windows). Being easily open for power users, hard to exploit for malware and hard for incompetent people to mess up, unfortunately, is a Hard Thing.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]