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Keep in mind that something as fundamental as the GPU driver wouldn't be available even they managed to get Linux up and running. And the M1 GPU is Apple's ful

by sweden 6y ago

Keep in mind that something as fundamental as the GPU driver wouldn't be available even they managed to get Linux up and running. And the M1 GPU is Apple's full custom GPU. Even if someone tried to reverse engineer a driver, it would take decades.

internet2000 6y ago
He seems relatively optimistic about getting a GPU driver going: https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1333126014910701568 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1333126014910701568 I don't think it'd take decades. Nouveau was pretty ok after like 5 years, wasn't it?
- sweden 6y ago
  It has been longer than that and 3D support is still a bit shaky. And this is based on known hardware.
- marcan_42 6y ago
  And Nouveau has to work with dozens of Nvidia cards, not just one, and full of legacy nonsense. I'm fairly optimistic it won't take 5 years. (Especially not to the point of having a composited desktop; long tail game compatibility is less of a critical thing since, well, there are next to no games for ARM Linux...)
  - sweden 6y ago
    If you are just planning to hack something to show some basic and buggy 2D rendering, 5 years might be realistic.
    - marcan_42 6y ago
      "Just 2D" isn't really a thing, given modern GPU usage is all based on fully programmable 3D pipelines anyway. What I mean is the endless frustrating job of debugging closed source game corner cases (and often outright game bugs) is less critical here, since those games won't exist for ARM anyway. If it gets to the point where X11 and Wayland, desktop environments, common widget toolkits, browsers, media players, etc work smoothly and stably and perform well, then a lot of people will be very happy already. The long tail will always be there to chip at, and that will take years (not like vendor drivers are bug-free on any OS either!), but it's not a blocking factor to a usable desktop Linux experience. Lower-hanging fruit first.
    - reificator 6y ago
      This talk was posted in another comment chain: https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016 This was 3 years after the hardware release, presented on substantially more locked-down (but x86 and PC-like GPU to be fair) hardware with a demonstration of Portal 2 running in real time. Presented by the person you are replying to. I'm also assuming there was no funding involved given the requirement to build an exploit just to boot anything on the PS4. As an unabashed cynic myself: Your cynicism as someone uninvolved with the project is outweighed by the informed opinion of someone who has demonstrated ability in the field of porting linux to other platforms.
      - marcan_42 6y ago
        To be fair, as the author of that: that was mostly a job of reverse engineering what was weird/broken/different about the PS4's GPU, which is otherwise a standard Radeon. It was effectively adding support for a new Radeon variant chip of an existing GPU generation. There was definitely a deep dive into the platform and I reverse engineered the proprietary Radeon firmware CPU architecture in the process (which nobody had done before), though, so I think I get some credit for that. But e.g. the userspace side "just worked" after a few trivial library patches; AMD's entire userspace blob GL/Vulkan driver worked completely unmodified once the kernel side was fixed up. This would be adding support for a completely different GPU, which is a whole different ballgame and order of magnitude of complexity. That said, as many hours as went into the PS4 Linux project, it was a hobby thing and I'm pretty sure if you add up the hours spent on the GPU side it wouldn't hit one month's worth of full-time work. I'm also offering a whole different order of magnitude of time investment here.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        codetrotter 6y ago
        If you get funding to do the Linux to Apple hardware port, have you considered streaming the whole process on e.g. Twitch? Would be very interesting to watch everything from the sideline. And as a reason to do it, aside from being inspiring and educational to others, by live-streaming your work you will certainly be able to attract even more funding over time.
edoceo 6y ago
Maybe Apple can provide some blobs? Like the closed Nvidia drivers
- phendrenad2 6y ago
  I doubt Apple would though. Why help people run non-standard OSs on your hardware with no App Store?
  - internet2000 6y ago
    Because it sells the hardware, where they make the most money. I don't think they will do something like that, but I think the reason is that they just don't care enough to dedicate internal resources.
    - izacus 6y ago
      Well, even for BootCamp, a marketed feature, they only dropped a halfarsed set of drivers which worked very poorly and were pretty never updated. We need to use hacked AMD drivers to get updates for the Radeons and the Macs still overheat and burn a lot energy due to lack of even basic power saving features. Heck, even the GPU switching isn't implemented. Why would there be expectation they'd do anything more for Linux?
      - macintux 6y ago
        > Why would there be expectation they'd do anything more for Linux? Linux is more complementary, compared to Windows which has been an existential threat to the Mac since the 90s. I agree with an earlier comment: I don't expect Apple will provide any assistance, but neither do I see it as entirely unlikely.
        tmzt 6y ago
        Windows in the Bootcamp role was also compliment ary, in that it enabled a company or individual worker to consider Ape hardware where Windows was a requirement or desired as a personal preference. This also enabled those users to spend time in MacOS or switch to virtualizing Windows and may lead to one or more personal purchases for themselves or members of their household.

by sweden 6y ago

internet2000 6y ago

He seems relatively optimistic about getting a GPU driver going: https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1333126014910701568 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1333126014910701568 I don't think it'd take decades. Nouveau was pretty ok after like 5 years, wasn't it?

sweden 6y ago
It has been longer than that and 3D support is still a bit shaky. And this is based on known hardware.
marcan_42 6y ago
And Nouveau has to work with dozens of Nvidia cards, not just one, and full of legacy nonsense. I'm fairly optimistic it won't take 5 years. (Especially not to the point of having a composited desktop; long tail game compatibility is less of a critical thing since, well, there are next to no games for ARM Linux...)
- sweden 6y ago
  If you are just planning to hack something to show some basic and buggy 2D rendering, 5 years might be realistic.
  - marcan_42 6y ago
    "Just 2D" isn't really a thing, given modern GPU usage is all based on fully programmable 3D pipelines anyway. What I mean is the endless frustrating job of debugging closed source game corner cases (and often outright game bugs) is less critical here, since those games won't exist for ARM anyway. If it gets to the point where X11 and Wayland, desktop environments, common widget toolkits, browsers, media players, etc work smoothly and stably and perform well, then a lot of people will be very happy already. The long tail will always be there to chip at, and that will take years (not like vendor drivers are bug-free on any OS either!), but it's not a blocking factor to a usable desktop Linux experience. Lower-hanging fruit first.
  - reificator 6y ago
    This talk was posted in another comment chain: https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016 This was 3 years after the hardware release, presented on substantially more locked-down (but x86 and PC-like GPU to be fair) hardware with a demonstration of Portal 2 running in real time. Presented by the person you are replying to. I'm also assuming there was no funding involved given the requirement to build an exploit just to boot anything on the PS4. As an unabashed cynic myself: Your cynicism as someone uninvolved with the project is outweighed by the informed opinion of someone who has demonstrated ability in the field of porting linux to other platforms.
    - marcan_42 6y ago
      To be fair, as the author of that: that was mostly a job of reverse engineering what was weird/broken/different about the PS4's GPU, which is otherwise a standard Radeon. It was effectively adding support for a new Radeon variant chip of an existing GPU generation. There was definitely a deep dive into the platform and I reverse engineered the proprietary Radeon firmware CPU architecture in the process (which nobody had done before), though, so I think I get some credit for that. But e.g. the userspace side "just worked" after a few trivial library patches; AMD's entire userspace blob GL/Vulkan driver worked completely unmodified once the kernel side was fixed up. This would be adding support for a completely different GPU, which is a whole different ballgame and order of magnitude of complexity. That said, as many hours as went into the PS4 Linux project, it was a hobby thing and I'm pretty sure if you add up the hours spent on the GPU side it wouldn't hit one month's worth of full-time work. I'm also offering a whole different order of magnitude of time investment here.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - codetrotter 6y ago
        If you get funding to do the Linux to Apple hardware port, have you considered streaming the whole process on e.g. Twitch? Would be very interesting to watch everything from the sideline. And as a reason to do it, aside from being inspiring and educational to others, by live-streaming your work you will certainly be able to attract even more funding over time.

edoceo 6y ago

Maybe Apple can provide some blobs? Like the closed Nvidia drivers

phendrenad2 6y ago
I doubt Apple would though. Why help people run non-standard OSs on your hardware with no App Store?
- internet2000 6y ago
  Because it sells the hardware, where they make the most money. I don't think they will do something like that, but I think the reason is that they just don't care enough to dedicate internal resources.
  - izacus 6y ago
    Well, even for BootCamp, a marketed feature, they only dropped a halfarsed set of drivers which worked very poorly and were pretty never updated. We need to use hacked AMD drivers to get updates for the Radeons and the Macs still overheat and burn a lot energy due to lack of even basic power saving features. Heck, even the GPU switching isn't implemented. Why would there be expectation they'd do anything more for Linux?
    - macintux 6y ago
      > Why would there be expectation they'd do anything more for Linux? Linux is more complementary, compared to Windows which has been an existential threat to the Mac since the 90s. I agree with an earlier comment: I don't expect Apple will provide any assistance, but neither do I see it as entirely unlikely.
      - tmzt 6y ago
        Windows in the Bootcamp role was also compliment ary, in that it enabled a company or individual worker to consider Ape hardware where Windows was a requirement or desired as a personal preference. This also enabled those users to spend time in MacOS or switch to virtualizing Windows and may lead to one or more personal purchases for themselves or members of their household.