4 ms·

There are many mechanics in commercial agreements; they amount on average to similar outcomes. It’s all rent whether it is a percentage of the till or a fixed c

by sunir 6y ago

There are many mechanics in commercial agreements; they amount on average to similar outcomes. It’s all rent whether it is a percentage of the till or a fixed cost over a term; where the landlord raised costs upon renewal as the business value rises.

jimktrains2 6y ago
Rent can be negotiated (although not usually done for residential leases, is for commercial ones) and the length can be, and often is, for more than a year. There isn't even the pretext of being able to negotiate the appstore cut. As I added in my edit, equating the rent of a physical space to an app store seems absurd to me, as well.
- sunir 6y ago
  Whether or not the landlord is willing to negotiate isn’t a legal right. They are fully allowed to set their own terms. Your own feelings don’t make a basis for law. You’ll need to find a meaningful difference here that constrains the rights of the private parties to draft contracts as they wish.
  - jimktrains2 6y ago
    I never said that a landlord _has_ to negotiate. I said rent, just like purchase price of property, can be negotiated. The appstore fee cannot be negotiated. There is no pretext that parties here will draft a mutual contract. I'm also not sure why you're attacking me and "my feelings" here, especially when it's not that I "feel" that commercial rents should be negotiated, but that they can be and often are negotiated.
    - sunir 6y ago
      You’re arguing a situation seems absurd to you and then working backwards. However we want to live by the Rule of Law so you need to put aside your commitment to your sentiment that this is absurd and investigate what is really happening, and then form a constructive rules-based case that would be fair even to companies that aren’t Apple. The problem with committing to your sense this is absurd is that you are neglecting to check if it is absurd. Perhaps your own assertions are the problem. For instance the Apple App Store fee can also be negotiated. There is nothing preventing Apple or an app developer from negotiating prices. Famously they did with Amazon for instance. The crux of the Apple case is whether they may legitimately control what apps you may install on your own general purpose computer. That element is critical to not just Apple but how much power any computer manufacturer now and into the long future may possess. The shopping mall analogy doesn't hold because both sellers and buyers have access to the entire free market. It's not controlled by the landlord. I would guess your sense the situation is absurd is based on this, but you haven't been able to articulate it. However, it is very common to argue digital freedoms based on what we want and feel rather than what rules make sense, and that is necessarily critiqueable as a bad habit.
      - jimktrains2 6y ago
        Yes, because being able to negotiate with apple is an option for the vast majority of developers, whereas negotiating rent is very common. I find the comparison to rent absurd, because as I've said elsewhere, the risk and marginal cost of a property to rent is much higher than the cost of an appstore selling another app.
        sunir 6y ago
        Right, I agree. If we followed the logic to the root cause here, we'd get to the problem. It doesn't matter how much Apple limiting supply in their app store. Stores have the ability to limit what inventory they shelve. However, this is only an issue because there is only one app store allowed on the iPhone that is controlled by Apple. That's the rule-based point of contention that won't cause collateral damage to other retailers who don't have a similar singular point of control.
- Arnt 6y ago
  If I may ask a question... The app stores perform payment processing, asset distribution/CDN work, malware detection and some minor tasks that AIUI have O(1) cost to them. They charge for only one of those, and make that charge high enough to cover all of the costs. What is it that you're unhappy with — are you unhappy with the payment processing fee but feel that the price level would be acceptable if structured as a sum of three fees, or are you saying that the total fee is too much for the total work they do?
  - jimktrains2 6y ago
    I simply find it hard to believe that such a fee would be fair if alternate app stores were available and as capable (as in capabilities allowed by the device) by default. Even on Android, where it is possible, side loading is a pain and without root the play store has capabilities that cannot be duplicated, I think the fee is only acceptable because of the iOS appstore's fee being the same.
    - Arnt 6y ago
      In that case you'll be interested to hear about the situation in China, where the biggest of the many android app stores has less than 30% market share. And what are the prices like? Bloomberg headline is "China's App Store Fees Make Apple's Look Cheap" and describes 50% as a typical rate. "Now, a handful of Chinese developers have started the fight to push their revenue split down to the global standard." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2020-10-08/china-s-app-store-fees-make-apple-s-look-cheap https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2020-10-08/china-...

by sunir 6y ago

jimktrains2 6y ago

Rent can be negotiated (although not usually done for residential leases, is for commercial ones) and the length can be, and often is, for more than a year. There isn't even the pretext of being able to negotiate the appstore cut. As I added in my edit, equating the rent of a physical space to an app store seems absurd to me, as well.

sunir 6y ago
Whether or not the landlord is willing to negotiate isn’t a legal right. They are fully allowed to set their own terms. Your own feelings don’t make a basis for law. You’ll need to find a meaningful difference here that constrains the rights of the private parties to draft contracts as they wish.
- jimktrains2 6y ago
  I never said that a landlord _has_ to negotiate. I said rent, just like purchase price of property, can be negotiated. The appstore fee cannot be negotiated. There is no pretext that parties here will draft a mutual contract. I'm also not sure why you're attacking me and "my feelings" here, especially when it's not that I "feel" that commercial rents should be negotiated, but that they can be and often are negotiated.
  - sunir 6y ago
    You’re arguing a situation seems absurd to you and then working backwards. However we want to live by the Rule of Law so you need to put aside your commitment to your sentiment that this is absurd and investigate what is really happening, and then form a constructive rules-based case that would be fair even to companies that aren’t Apple. The problem with committing to your sense this is absurd is that you are neglecting to check if it is absurd. Perhaps your own assertions are the problem. For instance the Apple App Store fee can also be negotiated. There is nothing preventing Apple or an app developer from negotiating prices. Famously they did with Amazon for instance. The crux of the Apple case is whether they may legitimately control what apps you may install on your own general purpose computer. That element is critical to not just Apple but how much power any computer manufacturer now and into the long future may possess. The shopping mall analogy doesn't hold because both sellers and buyers have access to the entire free market. It's not controlled by the landlord. I would guess your sense the situation is absurd is based on this, but you haven't been able to articulate it. However, it is very common to argue digital freedoms based on what we want and feel rather than what rules make sense, and that is necessarily critiqueable as a bad habit.
    - jimktrains2 6y ago
      Yes, because being able to negotiate with apple is an option for the vast majority of developers, whereas negotiating rent is very common. I find the comparison to rent absurd, because as I've said elsewhere, the risk and marginal cost of a property to rent is much higher than the cost of an appstore selling another app.
      - sunir 6y ago
        Right, I agree. If we followed the logic to the root cause here, we'd get to the problem. It doesn't matter how much Apple limiting supply in their app store. Stores have the ability to limit what inventory they shelve. However, this is only an issue because there is only one app store allowed on the iPhone that is controlled by Apple. That's the rule-based point of contention that won't cause collateral damage to other retailers who don't have a similar singular point of control.
Arnt 6y ago
If I may ask a question... The app stores perform payment processing, asset distribution/CDN work, malware detection and some minor tasks that AIUI have O(1) cost to them. They charge for only one of those, and make that charge high enough to cover all of the costs. What is it that you're unhappy with — are you unhappy with the payment processing fee but feel that the price level would be acceptable if structured as a sum of three fees, or are you saying that the total fee is too much for the total work they do?
- jimktrains2 6y ago
  I simply find it hard to believe that such a fee would be fair if alternate app stores were available and as capable (as in capabilities allowed by the device) by default. Even on Android, where it is possible, side loading is a pain and without root the play store has capabilities that cannot be duplicated, I think the fee is only acceptable because of the iOS appstore's fee being the same.
  - Arnt 6y ago
    In that case you'll be interested to hear about the situation in China, where the biggest of the many android app stores has less than 30% market share. And what are the prices like? Bloomberg headline is "China's App Store Fees Make Apple's Look Cheap" and describes 50% as a typical rate. "Now, a handful of Chinese developers have started the fight to push their revenue split down to the global standard." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2020-10-08/china-s-app-store-fees-make-apple-s-look-cheap https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2020-10-08/china-...