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Sadly there is no reasoning with stupid, I don't mean that in a totally derogatory way, we are all a bit stupid over something, that topic where our reasoning s

Sadly there is no reasoning with stupid, I don't mean that in a totally derogatory way, we are all a bit stupid over something, that topic where our reasoning stops and our emotions, fears and justifications take over. The only way to deal with stupid is more stupid. The best example I have heard of this is countering anti-vaxers with "Is is possible anti-vax is miss-information spread by insert "enemy" country to destabilise the health of this country's population?" Or "I wear a mask as it makes the government cameras and microphones harder to track me" (which actually isn't all that stupid probably)

cosmodisk 6y ago
It's not necessary that people are stupid but the logic is so flawed that you just can't help it. Also, people hate to be wrong,so even if the entire world tells different, they'd just defend their line even more stronger. I think this year, I lost all hope for humans seeing masses spouting utter nonsense like it's bloody dark ages..
sdoering 6y ago
Sadly I believe you are right. There are people on the fringes of a "conspiracy" that are still open to reason. They want an explanation for their world gone un-understandable (as I like to calll it) for them. Their worldviews just broke and their sense of security and normalcy received a huge blow. When the first soft lockdown was in place in Germany I stumbled into a small anti-mask/anti-corona discussion. There was a leader type (a medical doctor who should know better) that was unreachable. And there were some clear disciples of his. But there was also one guy who presented numbers and stats printed on paper about how much more deaths the flu season 17/18 caused. Gladly I knew my numbers and could point him to some facts about the numbers. First he only had data about said year. That some few years before there were only two-digit flu death numbers in Germany he didn't know (and I could point him to the same source of original data he was quoting showing this). The more and more I took his arguments seriously and only was arguing in a fact based manner based on his sources, the more I saw that he started to think about what he said. I also was clearly not putting him down and even stating, that some of the government's measures seem illogical to me (as they were at the time and still are), but that I - from the values I was raised with - valued the knowledge, that I do everything not to endanger people who cannot protect themselves as good as I can (they were mostly arguing against masks). I argued that I am guided above all by the value of humanity and that I therefore follow the principle of caution and prefer to wear the masks in a store where I might accidentally get too close to other people, even if I find it unpleasant, rather than taking the risk of possibly endangering someone in the risk group. While we talked, more and more people of this group as well as bystanders started to listen and I saw that at least in some parts the seemingly homogeneous group split into disciples and people starting to think. Do I think I was able to argue somebody out of believing? Clearly not - but I am hopeful, that I was able to plant a seed. One would need more time and more real talks to really pull someone away from the fringes of a conspiracy. Someone captured deep within is imho sadly lost. [Edit:] Forgot - I really like your irrationality approach. Will copy it and try it.
- simonbarker87 6y ago
  If you have time and they do t seem totally all in then the reasoning approach is still the best I think (as you out here) On illogical governments I’ve managed to calm friends down by saying “yeah, not all lock down rules seem sensible but you know what? We’ve not done this before, we’ve not been through a pandemic in about 100 years and the world is very different now. We are all making this up as we go along and so inconsistencies will arise, mistakes will be made and we will all get through this together by playing our role. Don’t rage at the system, realise the system is flawed but the end goal is the same, stop the virus spreading until we have a vaccine” it seems to have helped a number of my friends who were on the “it’s like these rules are designed to get us in trouble” train “Never assign to malice what can be explained by incompetence” - is a happier way to live in my books
  - lumberingjack 6y ago
    You're absolutely right we haven't gone through this 100 years people are way smarter now they understand how germs spread we'd be okay without lockdowns we'd be okay without masks I trust in humanity people are smart enough if they're taught to just cover with their arms and take regular baths.
- lumberingjack 6y ago
  When global leaders were in power they sent me to Iraq to look for wmds they expected toxic environments and put me through mopp training a lot of those guidelines were created by CDC. If a manufactured virus was to be loose the following guidelines were taught. This is military training overseen by CDC. Improper use of mask covering is worse than no covering, touching the mask to adjust it is improper, reusing mask is improper, improper disposal is improper, improper construction and material is improper,...... Then all of a sudden everything the CDC ever taught me flew out the window overnight and they started editing manuals to sound ridiculous.
prawn 6y ago
I don't think that's fighting stupid with stupid, but more so pitching black-sheep thinking to someone who likes the idea of being a black sheep. Your first example isn't entirely unlikely (I'd make it part of my effort if I were trying to destabilise a country) and as you said, the second example isn't too stupid. A friend of mine dated a woman recently and she was partial to some qanon business. When he carefully probed with an argument to see how firm her thinking was, she said literally "I don't want to change my mind," which is likely quite insightful.
- lumberingjack 6y ago
  Y'all sound like you just trying to indoctrinate and force a conformity what happened to diversity is our greatest strength diversity of thought will save us all if you just blindly file into a line like CNN tells you you're going to walk off a cliff
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
lumberingjack 6y ago
I have a problem with that logic because it's not working on me I would say I'm a pretty smart fellow and I used to think anti-vax was retarded but seeing all of the genome and DNA sequencing that's going on around the SARS virus and all the copywriting trademarking going around the DNA structure of the virus I'm starting to wonder if this whole sickness was manufactured just to sell drugs. As I said before I spend a lot of time in the hospital and when doctors are marking people who slipped on ice as dying of covid you got to start to wonder what the crap is going on.
new_realist 6y ago
Exactly. This is why organized religions were invented.

cosmodisk 6y ago

It's not necessary that people are stupid but the logic is so flawed that you just can't help it. Also, people hate to be wrong,so even if the entire world tells different, they'd just defend their line even more stronger. I think this year, I lost all hope for humans seeing masses spouting utter nonsense like it's bloody dark ages..

sdoering 6y ago

Sadly I believe you are right. There are people on the fringes of a "conspiracy" that are still open to reason. They want an explanation for their world gone un-understandable (as I like to calll it) for them. Their worldviews just broke and their sense of security and normalcy received a huge blow. When the first soft lockdown was in place in Germany I stumbled into a small anti-mask/anti-corona discussion. There was a leader type (a medical doctor who should know better) that was unreachable. And there were some clear disciples of his. But there was also one guy who presented numbers and stats printed on paper about how much more deaths the flu season 17/18 caused. Gladly I knew my numbers and could point him to some facts about the numbers. First he only had data about said year. That some few years before there were only two-digit flu death numbers in Germany he didn't know (and I could point him to the same source of original data he was quoting showing this). The more and more I took his arguments seriously and only was arguing in a fact based manner based on his sources, the more I saw that he started to think about what he said. I also was clearly not putting him down and even stating, that some of the government's measures seem illogical to me (as they were at the time and still are), but that I - from the values I was raised with - valued the knowledge, that I do everything not to endanger people who cannot protect themselves as good as I can (they were mostly arguing against masks). I argued that I am guided above all by the value of humanity and that I therefore follow the principle of caution and prefer to wear the masks in a store where I might accidentally get too close to other people, even if I find it unpleasant, rather than taking the risk of possibly endangering someone in the risk group. While we talked, more and more people of this group as well as bystanders started to listen and I saw that at least in some parts the seemingly homogeneous group split into disciples and people starting to think. Do I think I was able to argue somebody out of believing? Clearly not - but I am hopeful, that I was able to plant a seed. One would need more time and more real talks to really pull someone away from the fringes of a conspiracy. Someone captured deep within is imho sadly lost. [Edit:] Forgot - I really like your irrationality approach. Will copy it and try it.

simonbarker87 6y ago
If you have time and they do t seem totally all in then the reasoning approach is still the best I think (as you out here) On illogical governments I’ve managed to calm friends down by saying “yeah, not all lock down rules seem sensible but you know what? We’ve not done this before, we’ve not been through a pandemic in about 100 years and the world is very different now. We are all making this up as we go along and so inconsistencies will arise, mistakes will be made and we will all get through this together by playing our role. Don’t rage at the system, realise the system is flawed but the end goal is the same, stop the virus spreading until we have a vaccine” it seems to have helped a number of my friends who were on the “it’s like these rules are designed to get us in trouble” train “Never assign to malice what can be explained by incompetence” - is a happier way to live in my books
- lumberingjack 6y ago
  You're absolutely right we haven't gone through this 100 years people are way smarter now they understand how germs spread we'd be okay without lockdowns we'd be okay without masks I trust in humanity people are smart enough if they're taught to just cover with their arms and take regular baths.
lumberingjack 6y ago
When global leaders were in power they sent me to Iraq to look for wmds they expected toxic environments and put me through mopp training a lot of those guidelines were created by CDC. If a manufactured virus was to be loose the following guidelines were taught. This is military training overseen by CDC. Improper use of mask covering is worse than no covering, touching the mask to adjust it is improper, reusing mask is improper, improper disposal is improper, improper construction and material is improper,...... Then all of a sudden everything the CDC ever taught me flew out the window overnight and they started editing manuals to sound ridiculous.

prawn 6y ago

I don't think that's fighting stupid with stupid, but more so pitching black-sheep thinking to someone who likes the idea of being a black sheep. Your first example isn't entirely unlikely (I'd make it part of my effort if I were trying to destabilise a country) and as you said, the second example isn't too stupid. A friend of mine dated a woman recently and she was partial to some qanon business. When he carefully probed with an argument to see how firm her thinking was, she said literally "I don't want to change my mind," which is likely quite insightful.

lumberingjack 6y ago
Y'all sound like you just trying to indoctrinate and force a conformity what happened to diversity is our greatest strength diversity of thought will save us all if you just blindly file into a line like CNN tells you you're going to walk off a cliff
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

lumberingjack 6y ago

I have a problem with that logic because it's not working on me I would say I'm a pretty smart fellow and I used to think anti-vax was retarded but seeing all of the genome and DNA sequencing that's going on around the SARS virus and all the copywriting trademarking going around the DNA structure of the virus I'm starting to wonder if this whole sickness was manufactured just to sell drugs. As I said before I spend a lot of time in the hospital and when doctors are marking people who slipped on ice as dying of covid you got to start to wonder what the crap is going on.

new_realist 6y ago

Exactly. This is why organized religions were invented.