7 ms·

Guybrush Fact vs. Fiction

155 points by pmarin 6y ago

gwd 6y ago
This seems like a good litmus test to quietly see if someone has ever used MSDOS -- tell the story with the "guy.brush" version, and see if the listener furrows their eyebrows and says, "Wait, I thought extensions could only be 3 characters?" Could be useful in a murder mystery or something.
- TonyTrapp 6y ago
  Given that the story evolved around DPaint, most people knowledgeable of the era will probably assume that the artwork was done on an Amiga, where no such restriction existed. At least that was my idea of this story the whole time.
  - mysterydip 6y ago
    deluxe paint was available for DOS as well, wasn't it?
    - TonyTrapp 6y ago
      It was (as the article says), but I think it is very much known as the graphics editor for Amiga. I would imagine that more people will remember it as an Amiga tool than as a PC tool.
      - mysterydip 6y ago
        That's fair. I wonder how many dev houses at the time had amigas just for the art (as some companies do macs now), or if they kept uniform hardware and used the DOS version.
  - Gravityloss 6y ago
    They would know Monkey Island used VGA and 256 colors - not possible to do the artwork on Amiga. Deluxe Paint was awesome. Brushes, stencils, spare, grids, multibrush / symmetry. It was really fast to whip up something, yet possible to pixel tweak as well. Wolfenstein and Doom art was also done with Deluxe Paint as well IIRC.
    - TonyTrapp 6y ago
      It certainly was possible on the Amiga, although I'm not sure if dpaint could do it at the time of making Monkey Island 1. At least later versions supported HAM modes and of course when AGA arrived it did 256 colors too.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      They would know Monkey Island used VGA and 256 colors - not possible to do the artwork on Amiga. The Amiga had 4,096 colors at 368x482 out of the box. VGA is limited to 320x200 at 256 colors.
      - rob74 6y ago
        As much as I am an old Amiga fan, that's not correct. The 4096 colors were the whole palette (3 bits per color -> 2^12 = 4096 colors), but you could only use 32 of those colours without limitations. And then there were the "special modes" (EHB with 64 colors, where the second set of 32 were the first set with half brightness, and HAM, where you could theoretically see all 4096 colors at once, but only with careful optimization of the base 16 colors). Plus you could use the "Copper" (coprocessor) to set a new palette for each scanline. Some games used all of these tricks (and more) to achieve some very impressive results, but I don't think cross-platform titles like Monkey Island really invested that much effort into Amiga-specific optimizations... Details: http://theamigamuseum.com/the-hardware/the-amigas-graphic-modes/ http://theamigamuseum.com/the-hardware/the-amigas-graphic-mo...
        reaperducer 6y ago
        Thanks for the explanation. My memory was 4,096 colors in HAM mode. A quick internet search to confirm my memory turned out to be faulty.
  - jameshart 6y ago
    But... even if the artwork was being done on an Amiga, the game was being built on a PC. How are you getting your Amiga dPaint files over to the PC? Certainly not on an amiga formatted floppy. It’s got to go into a FAT file system before Ron Gilbert gets hold of it, so it’s not going to have a .brush extension.
- codeulike 6y ago
  Columbo pauses on his way out the door "Excuse me for asking, but did you say you saved the file as guy.brush?"
  - andi999 6y ago
    "Just one more thing ...."
- altcognito 6y ago
  It didn't cross my mind and I used MSDOS based systems for nearly a decade. It did spark my brain about the 8 characters long limitation for getting a non-shortened name though.
- rob74 6y ago
  As others have already written: when I read "Deluxe Paint", I automatically assumed that the artwork was done on an Amiga, because when you think Deluxe Paint, you think Amiga (I wasn't even aware that there was a PC version until now, or maybe I learned it at some point in the past and then forgot it again). And with that assumption, having no limitations on filenames or extensions actually made perfect sense. And BTW, that ".lbm" extension should actually be ".ilbm" (interleaved bitmap), same as ".jpg" should actually be ".jpeg". The MS-DOS limitations live on long after MS-DOS is no more...
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    While all my friends used pc paintbrush, I had DP2e on the PC. It felt very limiting when I was on one of their computers. I have nearly zero artistic talent, but could still turn out some passable stuff thanks to things like the perspective tools. I hadn't heard the .brush version before and just assumed it was guybrush.bbm
  - gwd 6y ago
    Too late to edit my comment now, but obviously if you were going to use that test, you have to make sure to make it clear (without being too obvious) that you were talking about the MS-DOS version.
- m463 6y ago
  Why would a company called MICROS~1.COM have such a filename scheme?
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    I realize this is a rhetorical question likely intended to be a joke, but the answer as with most historical things you can find on HN was technical trade-offs that made sense for the time: for a file system intended primarily for floppy disks (where the total available space was likely reported in KiBs at most), it made sense for the file system to be as space efficient as possible. Directory entries were allowed (exactly) 32 bytes only, and after necessary metadata (last modified date, status flags, where the contents are on disk [clusters], etc), 8+3 (11) bytes (~34% of the 32 bytes) was what was left for the name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.3_filename https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.3_filename
- sgtnoodle 6y ago
  It is a limitation in general in FAT filesystems all the way up to FAT32. Long filename support is a bolted on optional extension. I'm working on an embedded project right now where long filenames aren't needed and flash space is limited, so everything is 8.3 all capital letters.
- dwd 6y ago
  Not to mention MSDOS wasn't case specific so the name was probably GUYBRUSH.LBM. I dont remember there being lowercase filenames until Windows.
TimSchumann 6y ago
For those of you who are looking for some context, and have an hour to spare, Ahoy made a great documentary on YouTube about ‘The Secret of Monkey Island’ that touches on this topic. [0] The source material linked in this thread looks to be more authoritative than the video, and if I remember correctly the video even gets this detail of the story wrong, but sometimes it’s nice to know the story around the story. [0] https://youtu.be/9F9ahZQ7oP0 https://youtu.be/9F9ahZQ7oP0
- andi999 6y ago
  Does it reveal the secret :-)
  - bstar77 6y ago
    We will only know the secret if Gilbert gets the rights to make another Monkey Island game.
    - TimSchumann 6y ago
      One can hope.
      - andi999 6y ago
        Actually I think the secret is probably a total let down. The MI games are (potty) humour kids games (which nobody in my country due to lack of language skills realized, and it felt much more mature and cooler than it was intended)
        bstar77 6y ago
        I think the secret is likely tied to MI2. The ending of that game is very cryptic and more adult oriented in nature.
        andi999 6y ago
hannob 6y ago
I actually remember that I read that story and wondered in my head about the extension length. But I had two possible ideas what could make the story work. One was that maybe they just hadn't used MS-DOS. There were plenty of computer systems out there and I had no knowledge what they used for programming the original MI or even which one was the original (it was available on different plattforms). The second was that maybe the extension was something like .brs as an abbrevation for brush, but they pronounced it brush and eventually took the pronounciation as the name, not the literal filename. Now I know both are wrong.
SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago
"People are forgetting or never knew that MSDOS had a three letter file extension limit " /cries in 8.3/
- labster 6y ago
  Three letter extensions ought to be enough for anyone.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
shmerl 6y ago
I like how the Witcher 3 references Guybrush. There is a character named Mancomb there who also looks like Guybrush.
- wozer 6y ago
  There is also a "Mancomb" character in TSOMI: https://monkeyisland.fandom.com/wiki/Mancomb_Seepgood https://monkeyisland.fandom.com/wiki/Mancomb_Seepgood
ISL 6y ago
Is there a similar story for Threepwood? His name is Guybrush Threepwood after all...
- TimSchumann 6y ago
  I think the video I linked in this thread touches on that detail as well, though I don't remember specifically or have a time index for you. Give it a watch though.
- zasz 6y ago
  I thought that was the result of a company naming contest, but the original link is making me doubt everything I thought I knew.
arexxbifs 6y ago
Just wanted to pop in and share a few fun facts about Deluxe Paint, Amiga and Monkey Island. Electronic Arts originally made Deluxe Paint for the Amiga, along with the IFF (Interchange File Format) standard and ILBM (Interleaved Bitmap), an image format conforming to IFF. They released the first version in 1985, for the Amiga 1000. The last version was version 5, in 1995, though I'm not sure how much EA was actually involved with that one. The first Amiga version they released that could handle 256 colors came out in 1993, designed for the then new AGA graphics chipset. It became such a favorite that Psygnosis (after being bought by Sony) reportedly used Deluxe Paint on Amigas to create some of the graphics for Wipeout. I also know of other companies that used Amigas well into the early noughties for creating pixel graphics for mobile phones. Avril Harrison is an artist whose "A.H." signature can been seen on many of the example pictures that were distributed along with Deluxe Paint, including her rendition of Botticelli's Venus and the iconic Tutankhamun gold mask[1]. LucasArts, however, seemed to be using PC:s exclusively. AFAIK, Monkey Island was ported to the Amiga by another company hired specifically for that task. At the time when Monkey Island I and II were made the Amiga chipset didn't have support for 256 colors. The maximum was 32 colors, plus 32 darker shades of those colors, in a mode called EHB (Extra Half-brite). Monkey Island, just like most other Amiga games, was made to run in normal 32 color mode. Avril Harrison later started working for LucasArts and it's claimed the original art depicting governor Elaine Marley[2] is based on her likeness. [1] https://i.redd.it/hk6hkm84xv011.png https://i.redd.it/hk6hkm84xv011.png [2] https://www.sporting04.it/general/explorers/ddb/MonkeyIsland04.jpg https://www.sporting04.it/general/explorers/ddb/MonkeyIsland...
jonplackett 6y ago
The art was great and all, but Monkey Island 2 is one of the best written games of all time, IMHO. Just so so good.
- kobalsky 6y ago
  and the music is so good. imuse was a marvel. the music transitioned between areas in a way that hasn't been matched.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    Yes! I actually got MI2 free with my Creative SoundBlaster 2.0 sound card! The Monkey Island Theme especially is brilliant, and I dearly wish I could play it on piano like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wXcYv2ebJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wXcYv2ebJ0
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
About once a year I run Colonization (1994), and I always name my governor Guybrush Threepwood.
nevster 6y ago
Funny coincidence. If any of you play Echo VR - my username is Guybrush_nev. Sadly very few people get the reference.
rakshajain 6y ago
Hire Best Packers And Movers Mumbai for hassle-free Household Shifting, *Office Relocation, ###Car Transporation, Loading Unloading, packing Unpacking at affordable ???Price Quotation. Top Rated, Safe and Secure Service Providers who can help you with 24x7 and make sure a Untroubled Relocation Services at Cheapest/Lowest Rate @ https://packersmoversmumbaicity.in/ https://packersmoversmumbaicity.in/

155 points by pmarin 6y ago

gwd 6y ago

This seems like a good litmus test to quietly see if someone has ever used MSDOS -- tell the story with the "guy.brush" version, and see if the listener furrows their eyebrows and says, "Wait, I thought extensions could only be 3 characters?" Could be useful in a murder mystery or something.

TonyTrapp 6y ago
Given that the story evolved around DPaint, most people knowledgeable of the era will probably assume that the artwork was done on an Amiga, where no such restriction existed. At least that was my idea of this story the whole time.
- mysterydip 6y ago
  deluxe paint was available for DOS as well, wasn't it?
  - TonyTrapp 6y ago
    It was (as the article says), but I think it is very much known as the graphics editor for Amiga. I would imagine that more people will remember it as an Amiga tool than as a PC tool.
    - mysterydip 6y ago
      That's fair. I wonder how many dev houses at the time had amigas just for the art (as some companies do macs now), or if they kept uniform hardware and used the DOS version.
- Gravityloss 6y ago
  They would know Monkey Island used VGA and 256 colors - not possible to do the artwork on Amiga. Deluxe Paint was awesome. Brushes, stencils, spare, grids, multibrush / symmetry. It was really fast to whip up something, yet possible to pixel tweak as well. Wolfenstein and Doom art was also done with Deluxe Paint as well IIRC.
  - TonyTrapp 6y ago
    It certainly was possible on the Amiga, although I'm not sure if dpaint could do it at the time of making Monkey Island 1. At least later versions supported HAM modes and of course when AGA arrived it did 256 colors too.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    They would know Monkey Island used VGA and 256 colors - not possible to do the artwork on Amiga. The Amiga had 4,096 colors at 368x482 out of the box. VGA is limited to 320x200 at 256 colors.
    - rob74 6y ago
      As much as I am an old Amiga fan, that's not correct. The 4096 colors were the whole palette (3 bits per color -> 2^12 = 4096 colors), but you could only use 32 of those colours without limitations. And then there were the "special modes" (EHB with 64 colors, where the second set of 32 were the first set with half brightness, and HAM, where you could theoretically see all 4096 colors at once, but only with careful optimization of the base 16 colors). Plus you could use the "Copper" (coprocessor) to set a new palette for each scanline. Some games used all of these tricks (and more) to achieve some very impressive results, but I don't think cross-platform titles like Monkey Island really invested that much effort into Amiga-specific optimizations... Details: http://theamigamuseum.com/the-hardware/the-amigas-graphic-modes/ http://theamigamuseum.com/the-hardware/the-amigas-graphic-mo...
      - reaperducer 6y ago
        Thanks for the explanation. My memory was 4,096 colors in HAM mode. A quick internet search to confirm my memory turned out to be faulty.
- jameshart 6y ago
  But... even if the artwork was being done on an Amiga, the game was being built on a PC. How are you getting your Amiga dPaint files over to the PC? Certainly not on an amiga formatted floppy. It’s got to go into a FAT file system before Ron Gilbert gets hold of it, so it’s not going to have a .brush extension.
codeulike 6y ago
Columbo pauses on his way out the door "Excuse me for asking, but did you say you saved the file as guy.brush?"
- andi999 6y ago
  "Just one more thing ...."
altcognito 6y ago
It didn't cross my mind and I used MSDOS based systems for nearly a decade. It did spark my brain about the 8 characters long limitation for getting a non-shortened name though.
rob74 6y ago
As others have already written: when I read "Deluxe Paint", I automatically assumed that the artwork was done on an Amiga, because when you think Deluxe Paint, you think Amiga (I wasn't even aware that there was a PC version until now, or maybe I learned it at some point in the past and then forgot it again). And with that assumption, having no limitations on filenames or extensions actually made perfect sense. And BTW, that ".lbm" extension should actually be ".ilbm" (interleaved bitmap), same as ".jpg" should actually be ".jpeg". The MS-DOS limitations live on long after MS-DOS is no more...
- aidenn0 6y ago
  While all my friends used pc paintbrush, I had DP2e on the PC. It felt very limiting when I was on one of their computers. I have nearly zero artistic talent, but could still turn out some passable stuff thanks to things like the perspective tools. I hadn't heard the .brush version before and just assumed it was guybrush.bbm
- gwd 6y ago
  Too late to edit my comment now, but obviously if you were going to use that test, you have to make sure to make it clear (without being too obvious) that you were talking about the MS-DOS version.
m463 6y ago
Why would a company called MICROS~1.COM have such a filename scheme?
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  I realize this is a rhetorical question likely intended to be a joke, but the answer as with most historical things you can find on HN was technical trade-offs that made sense for the time: for a file system intended primarily for floppy disks (where the total available space was likely reported in KiBs at most), it made sense for the file system to be as space efficient as possible. Directory entries were allowed (exactly) 32 bytes only, and after necessary metadata (last modified date, status flags, where the contents are on disk [clusters], etc), 8+3 (11) bytes (~34% of the 32 bytes) was what was left for the name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.3_filename https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.3_filename
sgtnoodle 6y ago
It is a limitation in general in FAT filesystems all the way up to FAT32. Long filename support is a bolted on optional extension. I'm working on an embedded project right now where long filenames aren't needed and flash space is limited, so everything is 8.3 all capital letters.
dwd 6y ago
Not to mention MSDOS wasn't case specific so the name was probably GUYBRUSH.LBM. I dont remember there being lowercase filenames until Windows.

TimSchumann 6y ago

For those of you who are looking for some context, and have an hour to spare, Ahoy made a great documentary on YouTube about ‘The Secret of Monkey Island’ that touches on this topic. [0] The source material linked in this thread looks to be more authoritative than the video, and if I remember correctly the video even gets this detail of the story wrong, but sometimes it’s nice to know the story around the story. [0] https://youtu.be/9F9ahZQ7oP0 https://youtu.be/9F9ahZQ7oP0

andi999 6y ago
Does it reveal the secret :-)
- bstar77 6y ago
  We will only know the secret if Gilbert gets the rights to make another Monkey Island game.
  - TimSchumann 6y ago
    One can hope.
    - andi999 6y ago
      Actually I think the secret is probably a total let down. The MI games are (potty) humour kids games (which nobody in my country due to lack of language skills realized, and it felt much more mature and cooler than it was intended)
      - bstar77 6y ago
        I think the secret is likely tied to MI2. The ending of that game is very cryptic and more adult oriented in nature.
        andi999 6y ago

hannob 6y ago

I actually remember that I read that story and wondered in my head about the extension length. But I had two possible ideas what could make the story work. One was that maybe they just hadn't used MS-DOS. There were plenty of computer systems out there and I had no knowledge what they used for programming the original MI or even which one was the original (it was available on different plattforms). The second was that maybe the extension was something like .brs as an abbrevation for brush, but they pronounced it brush and eventually took the pronounciation as the name, not the literal filename. Now I know both are wrong.

SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago

"People are forgetting or never knew that MSDOS had a three letter file extension limit " /cries in 8.3/

labster 6y ago
Three letter extensions ought to be enough for anyone.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

shmerl 6y ago

I like how the Witcher 3 references Guybrush. There is a character named Mancomb there who also looks like Guybrush.

wozer 6y ago
There is also a "Mancomb" character in TSOMI: https://monkeyisland.fandom.com/wiki/Mancomb_Seepgood https://monkeyisland.fandom.com/wiki/Mancomb_Seepgood

ISL 6y ago

Is there a similar story for Threepwood? His name is Guybrush Threepwood after all...

TimSchumann 6y ago
I think the video I linked in this thread touches on that detail as well, though I don't remember specifically or have a time index for you. Give it a watch though.
zasz 6y ago
I thought that was the result of a company naming contest, but the original link is making me doubt everything I thought I knew.

arexxbifs 6y ago

Just wanted to pop in and share a few fun facts about Deluxe Paint, Amiga and Monkey Island. Electronic Arts originally made Deluxe Paint for the Amiga, along with the IFF (Interchange File Format) standard and ILBM (Interleaved Bitmap), an image format conforming to IFF. They released the first version in 1985, for the Amiga 1000. The last version was version 5, in 1995, though I'm not sure how much EA was actually involved with that one. The first Amiga version they released that could handle 256 colors came out in 1993, designed for the then new AGA graphics chipset. It became such a favorite that Psygnosis (after being bought by Sony) reportedly used Deluxe Paint on Amigas to create some of the graphics for Wipeout. I also know of other companies that used Amigas well into the early noughties for creating pixel graphics for mobile phones. Avril Harrison is an artist whose "A.H." signature can been seen on many of the example pictures that were distributed along with Deluxe Paint, including her rendition of Botticelli's Venus and the iconic Tutankhamun gold mask[1]. LucasArts, however, seemed to be using PC:s exclusively. AFAIK, Monkey Island was ported to the Amiga by another company hired specifically for that task. At the time when Monkey Island I and II were made the Amiga chipset didn't have support for 256 colors. The maximum was 32 colors, plus 32 darker shades of those colors, in a mode called EHB (Extra Half-brite). Monkey Island, just like most other Amiga games, was made to run in normal 32 color mode. Avril Harrison later started working for LucasArts and it's claimed the original art depicting governor Elaine Marley[2] is based on her likeness. [1] https://i.redd.it/hk6hkm84xv011.png https://i.redd.it/hk6hkm84xv011.png [2] https://www.sporting04.it/general/explorers/ddb/MonkeyIsland04.jpg https://www.sporting04.it/general/explorers/ddb/MonkeyIsland...

jonplackett 6y ago

The art was great and all, but Monkey Island 2 is one of the best written games of all time, IMHO. Just so so good.

kobalsky 6y ago
and the music is so good. imuse was a marvel. the music transitioned between areas in a way that hasn't been matched.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  Yes! I actually got MI2 free with my Creative SoundBlaster 2.0 sound card! The Monkey Island Theme especially is brilliant, and I dearly wish I could play it on piano like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wXcYv2ebJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wXcYv2ebJ0

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

About once a year I run Colonization (1994), and I always name my governor Guybrush Threepwood.

nevster 6y ago

Funny coincidence. If any of you play Echo VR - my username is Guybrush_nev. Sadly very few people get the reference.

rakshajain 6y ago

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